LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - Crocodile McKeller: Men at Work

[ay2oh]

Not seen much of Hoyt but like what I have seen.

[Rugbygramps]

mulling it over whilst working last night I really like the idea of moving Martin to 8 and bringing in the bulky ball carrying lock, it'd make Martin more effective ball in hand than he already is and give 2 line out options in the back row

That’s in a similar camp to the Steward to 12 idea

[No6_Flanker]

From what I've seen, Hoyt looks a better bet to be 4th choice than Richardson.

Not sure where this bandwagon to allow Richardson to leave has come from? Last time he played, for 80 mins, he was roundly praised. He’s still young by tighthead standards, and has plenty of years in him. I’d be looking to keep him as a good 4th choice.

Well this is a Supporter's Forum, where people can give opinions on topics, and that may mean reading opinions that you don't agree with. Me suggesting Hoyt would be a better 4th choice than Richardson is not a bandwagon!

Hoyt is a 20 year old prop that looks to have a good potential and has come from our academy. Personally I'd rather we developed him from being a 4th choice TH, then have that spot taken up by someone has barely played under 3 successive Head Coaches, and struggled last week at Ealing.

Multiple people have suggested it, thus using the collective noun for a group of similar opinions.

My comment is more in counter to the accelerating trend of writing players off that haven’t made it by a certain age. Most pertinent for the front row, where you used to not hit your prime until your late 20s.

Would you agree that Richardson hasn’t played much under those head coaches due to Cole not being picked for internationals? And to struggle against a front row that many people have described as Premiership standard, alongside not the biggest nor most experienced hooker, in front of not the most powerful lock pairing, isn’t exactly representative?

How about we play Richardson alongside Montoya, Whitcombe, Martin, and Chessum and see how he goes?

[Jimmy Skitz]

mulling it over whilst working last night I really like the idea of moving Martin to 8 and bringing in the bulky ball carrying lock, it'd make Martin more effective ball in hand than he already is and give 2 line out options in the back row

That’s in a similar camp to the Steward to 12 idea

we play in a salary capped sport which has no real money in it, when you have a plethora of talent in one area you may look to switch some of them to solve needs elsewhere, we have a lot of depth at lock, we are told we are not signing a replacement for Jasper so some of us are looking at potential in house solutions, its kinda what forums are for, to talk about stuff, if you disagree fine

[Jimmy Skitz]

Not sure where this bandwagon to allow Richardson to leave has come from? Last time he played, for 80 mins, he was roundly praised. He’s still young by tighthead standards, and has plenty of years in him. I’d be looking to keep him as a good 4th choice.

Well this is a Supporter's Forum, where people can give opinions on topics, and that may mean reading opinions that you don't agree with. Me suggesting Hoyt would be a better 4th choice than Richardson is not a bandwagon!

Hoyt is a 20 year old prop that looks to have a good potential and has come from our academy. Personally I'd rather we developed him from being a 4th choice TH, then have that spot taken up by someone has barely played under 3 successive Head Coaches, and struggled last week at Ealing.

Multiple people have suggested it, thus using the collective noun for a group of similar opinions.

My comment is more in counter to the accelerating trend of writing players off that haven’t made it by a certain age. Most pertinent for the front row, where you used to not hit your prime until your late 20s.

Would you agree that Richardson hasn’t played much under those head coaches due to Cole not being picked for internationals? And to struggle against a front row that many people have described as Premiership standard, alongside not the biggest nor most experienced hooker, in front of not the most powerful lock pairing, isn’t exactly representative?

How about we play Richardson alongside Montoya, Whitcombe, Martin, and Chessum and see how he goes?

multiple people have suggested Richardson was off yes but not many have mentioned Hoyt, I took it as meaning Dan's contract was coming due and given his lack of game time he was leaving, being 4th behind what could have been, but for injury, 3 senior international tightheads is a difficult spot for him

[No6_Flanker]

multiple people have suggested Richardson was off yes but not many have mentioned Hoyt, I took it as meaning Dan's contract was coming due and given his lack of game time he was leaving, being 4th behind what could have been, but for injury, 3 senior international tightheads is a difficult spot for him

You’re right that being behind 3 internationals is tough to get game time.

I think that we shouldn’t rush to bin Richardson, whose development may have been delayed due to switching sides, and to promote Hoyt. Why not give Richardson another 1-2 year deal and let Hoyt get some game time for Nottingham?

[Jimmy Skitz]

multiple people have suggested Richardson was off yes but not many have mentioned Hoyt, I took it as meaning Dan's contract was coming due and given his lack of game time he was leaving, being 4th behind what could have been, but for injury, 3 senior international tightheads is a difficult spot for him

You’re right that being behind 3 internationals is tough to get game time.

I think that we shouldn’t rush to bin Richardson, whose development may have been delayed due to switching sides, and to promote Hoyt. Why not give Richardson another 1-2 year deal and let Hoyt get some game time for Nottingham?

all depends on the money figure I'd guess and what they think of Hoyt, Richardson himself could do with a championship loan IMO

[Tiglon]

Richardson is 28 next month and I'm not sure he's done anything to suggest he'll ever be 1st or 2nd choice in the Premiership.

I think he was signed as 4th choice and I'm not sure he's likely to progress from there.

If Hoyt is deemed not ready to take 4th spot, or it's decided he will benefit more from a full Championship season, then sure let's keep Richardson.

[sk 88]

One thing that's important to point out, the England players are STILL going to be missing at least 3 rounds of the Prem, even with the reduced size.

For instance there is literally not enough weeks in the year to have 10 weeks off after the NZ tour this summer, then have 5 weeks of autumn internationals (4 games + training week), 8 weeks in the 6N (5 matches, 2 byes and a training week), 8 weeks of European Rugby then also play 20 weeks of Prem rugby without any clashes.

Those 3 rounds might be the first three (if they they aren't we'll not be starting until 5th October, they might be the training weeks plus one of the 6N bye weeks, or some combination of above.c

With Borthwick's power trip pulling back of the entire squad (rather than just the starting XV + perhaps cover for a niggle as every previous coach did) that's the potential for a serious number of players.

EDIT to add: This is why I am against any retreat in the season in the name of welfare or "reducing clashes". Any reduction is immediately swallowed up by the international game that has no interest in us or player welfare or reducing clashes. You might as well just play more matches & give your fans a better service.

[Rugbygramps]

mulling it over whilst working last night I really like the idea of moving Martin to 8 and bringing in the bulky ball carrying lock, it'd make Martin more effective ball in hand than he already is and give 2 line out options in the back row

That’s in a similar camp to the Steward to 12 idea

we play in a salary capped sport which has no real money in it, when you have a plethora of talent in one area you may look to switch some of them to solve needs elsewhere, we have a lot of depth at lock, we are told we are not signing a replacement for Jasper so some of us are looking at potential in house solutions, its kinda what forums are for, to talk about stuff, if you disagree fine

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

[sk 88]

That’s in a similar camp to the Steward to 12 idea

we play in a salary capped sport which has no real money in it, when you have a plethora of talent in one area you may look to switch some of them to solve needs elsewhere, we have a lot of depth at lock, we are told we are not signing a replacement for Jasper so some of us are looking at potential in house solutions, its kinda what forums are for, to talk about stuff, if you disagree fine

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

[Jimmy Skitz]

we play in a salary capped sport which has no real money in it, when you have a plethora of talent in one area you may look to switch some of them to solve needs elsewhere, we have a lot of depth at lock, we are told we are not signing a replacement for Jasper so some of us are looking at potential in house solutions, its kinda what forums are for, to talk about stuff, if you disagree fine

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

no one would bat an eye of either Martin or Chessum playing 6 so why is 8 so different? it came up because Martin had played there in a prem cup match so it was a conceivable idea, I don't know enough about the mechanics of scrummaging in the second row but could it also help with his knee injury issues?

[Rugbygramps]

we play in a salary capped sport which has no real money in it, when you have a plethora of talent in one area you may look to switch some of them to solve needs elsewhere, we have a lot of depth at lock, we are told we are not signing a replacement for Jasper so some of us are looking at potential in house solutions, its kinda what forums are for, to talk about stuff, if you disagree fine

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

So you want our scrum back 5 to be made up of 3 locks a 6 and a 7. Certainly an interesting opinion not one I share.
As I’m sure you know this isn’t junior rugby where players can just swap positions there is a hell of a lot more to it

[AViewFromLe2]

Not sure where this bandwagon to allow Richardson to leave has come from? Last time he played, for 80 mins, he was roundly praised. He’s still young by tighthead standards, and has plenty of years in him. I’d be looking to keep him as a good 4th choice.

Well this is a Supporter's Forum, where people can give opinions on topics, and that may mean reading opinions that you don't agree with. Me suggesting Hoyt would be a better 4th choice than Richardson is not a bandwagon!

Hoyt is a 20 year old prop that looks to have a good potential and has come from our academy. Personally I'd rather we developed him from being a 4th choice TH, then have that spot taken up by someone has barely played under 3 successive Head Coaches, and struggled last week at Ealing.

Multiple people have suggested it, thus using the collective noun for a group of similar opinions.

My comment is more in counter to the accelerating trend of writing players off that haven’t made it by a certain age. Most pertinent for the front row, where you used to not hit your prime until your late 20s.

Would you agree that Richardson hasn’t played much under those head coaches due to Cole not being picked for internationals? And to struggle against a front row that many people have described as Premiership standard, alongside not the biggest nor most experienced hooker, in front of not the most powerful lock pairing, isn’t exactly representative?

How about we play Richardson alongside Montoya, Whitcombe, Martin, and Chessum and see how he goes?

No I wouldn't agree with any of that. Three successive Head Coaches have seen him day in, day out for 3 seasons now and have only picked him in the league or Europe in an emergency. In that time, there has been plenty of times when Cole has not been around. Richardson has also been given plenty of games in the PRC over those 3 years, not once has he really put down such a marker that really puts him forward for selection in league or european action regularly. Ultimately, that tells a story and I don't think he can feel hard done by, for the lack of minutes unlike other players.

Against Ealing he had Wells and Hatherall behind him, just like he did against Quins, which is a premiership standard second row. The back row was also premiership standard with Hanro, Rogerson and Cracknell. And even in the front row his fellow prop was Van Wyk who is premiership standard. The fact he struggled against a decent premiership standard LH, when surrounded by fellow Premiership standard forwards on his own side, is not a great endorsement for keeping him. Indeed it is probably the best argument for letting him go.

He is ultimately a squad player that has shown he is probably not Premiership standard, and is now potentially blocking the development of one of our development players. Time to let him go to the Championship and play regularly there, and develop one of our own.

[AViewFromLe2]

I just don’t understand this fascination with player’s training and coached to be high level international players in a certain position and then looking to move them. IMO I have seen very little from Martin, who out played 2 South African locks in a semi final, to indicate he would make an 8, just as I’m seen nothing from Steward to suggest he would make a 12

Similarly I don't get people wanting to lock players into positional boxes. I want as many of the best players on the field as possible, based on the people we currently employ next year that would mean Henderson, Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Liebenberg all being on the field at the same time. So one of them will have the wear number 8!

So you want our scrum back 5 to be made up of 3 locks a 6 and a 7. Certainly an interesting opinion not one I share.
As I’m sure you know this isn’t junior rugby where players can just swap positions there is a hell of a lot more to it

Hanro Liebenberg started the 21/22 season at 8 for the first 4/5 games of the season and has played for 8 other times for us, as well as before joining us. Ollie Chessum has played at 6 for both Tigers and England, and indeed played there against Exeter for us before Christmas. Henderson has also played at 6 for us before.

A back 5 of Henderson, Martin, Chessum, Reffell and Hanro would not be my first choice, but it is not so mad that it should be dismissed as being a crazy idea.