2024 Six Nations Chat

[TigerFeetSteve]

‘According to accounts’? Sources?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... borthwick/

Don’t have a subscription, I’m afraid.

https://archive.is/2ehfw

Paywall removed

[Jimmy Skitz]

The fact England aren’t doing any attack training doesn’t bother me, the fact a player has leaked this does.

Borthwick is a good coach given past record. He should be given time to bed in but the press and the Kick=bad brigade might not give him it.

For me, the extreme rush defence is clearly the best for knockout rugby when pressure is the greatest so glad England are giving it a go.

England are getting rightly criticized for not being any good in attack, Borthwick has basically left them hanging by not responding to it so I am fine with players making it known that to coach doesn't want them practising it, Borthwick wants to solve it then let the attack coach do his job.

I'm beginning to think the worst thing that ever happened to Steve Borthwick the coach was us winning the premiership, he's stuck with those exact tactics and will not move on

[Tiglon]

I get the impression that Borthwick has spent his entire career not worrying about whether people like him, and there seems to be a long queue of people eager to have a dig now that he's in a role with which the media are interested. There was a Toby Flood interview recently, where it seemed that he really, really did not like Borthwick from England playing days.

I agree that defence should be sorted first, along with set piece, but surely there's time to do at least some attack.

Borthwick has to realise that he is now in a job that comes with huge political and media aspects, and regardless of how good he is as a coach, he won't get the time to realise his vision if he doesn't bring players, fans and the media along with him and get them to buy into the journey.

30-60 minutes of attack practice would certainly help the team and, perhaps, more importantly for Borthwick's job security, also help appease certain detractors.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Borthwick is very detail oriented.
Borthwick hates leaks.

Two facts I found very obvious during his Tigers career.

Unless there are multiple backs who only had 1 touch in a training session, then I wouldn't be surprised if that player is identified by Borthwick. Said player seems to be banking on Borthwick not having much longer as England HC...

[Rugbygramps]

Borthwick is very detail oriented.
Borthwick hates leaks.

Two facts I found very obvious during his Tigers career.

Unless there are multiple backs who only had 1 touch in a training session, then I wouldn't be surprised if that player is identified by Borthwick. Said player seems to be banking on Borthwick not having much longer as England HC...

Leak hasn’t necessarily come from that player. Lenny will still have plenty of contacts in that England squad so could really have come from anyone of 50 people.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Borthwick is very detail oriented.
Borthwick hates leaks.

Two facts I found very obvious during his Tigers career.

Unless there are multiple backs who only had 1 touch in a training session, then I wouldn't be surprised if that player is identified by Borthwick. Said player seems to be banking on Borthwick not having much longer as England HC...

Leak hasn’t necessarily come from that player. Lenny will still have plenty of contacts in that England squad so could really have come from anyone of 50 people.

Not many will notice a player only having one touch. So generally unless that player has voiced it then only one person probably knows...

[Rugbygramps]

Borthwick is very detail oriented.
Borthwick hates leaks.

Two facts I found very obvious during his Tigers career.

Unless there are multiple backs who only had 1 touch in a training session, then I wouldn't be surprised if that player is identified by Borthwick. Said player seems to be banking on Borthwick not having much longer as England HC...

Leak hasn’t necessarily come from that player. Lenny will still have plenty of contacts in that England squad so could really have come from anyone of 50 people.

Not many will notice a player only having one touch. So generally unless that player has voiced it then only one person probably knows...

Agree to disagree it’s amazing what players pick up. Just think it’s wrong to assume it’s come from that one player

[Scott1]

Regardless of who or where it came from,these things don't come out when teams are winning and players are happy. The pressure is on Steve now and another 2 defeats coupled with repeated poor performances and he will already be under severe pressure imo.

[sam16111986]

Leak hasn’t necessarily come from that player. Lenny will still have plenty of contacts in that England squad so could really have come from anyone of 50 people.

Not many will notice a player only having one touch. So generally unless that player has voiced it then only one person probably knows...

Agree to disagree it’s amazing what players pick up. Just think it’s wrong to assume it’s come from that one player

It's one session, at no point is the nature of the session discussed. If the session was a defence or kick chase orientated then perhaps the point of the session wasn't to put a ball in that player's hands.

The quotes taken from two different podcasts were seemingly selected to fit the general idea of having a dig at England's attack. It's not currently working particularly well but as we are looking to attack with more shape and more ball in hand than we have done for several years I think it might take some time. Especially as we are also implementing a new defence at the same time.

[DeadlyDunc]

Good points made - I also wonder if Borthwick and the coaches thought that the new blitz defence would wreak havoc and force errors from the opposition in their own half which, in turn, would give chances to score some quick, relatively simple tries from turnovers like Tigers managed under him.

That can build confidence and scoreboard pressure which in turn releases the pressure ball in hand as again happened wiht Tigers - we did score some great tries but often in the last 15-20mins when the game was already within our control.

That hasn't been the case in the main so the focus then comes on the all court attack and with ball in hand which isn't functioning.

I imagine SB might well still believe "get the defence right and the attack will come naturally" based on the above and hence the reports coming out of the camp and from ex-players.

[trendylfj]

I know that most of us were upset when he left us and took a lot of our courses at the time with him. I don't know him personally so have to draw my judgment on what I read from people who do and he seems to me to be very focused and a detail man. That MAY also mean that it is not easy to shift him from his view on the way the game is to be played and won. The conversations the TV had with him regarding the kicking game is but one example, his focus on defence is another. The game is played by 23 people, scoring more points than the opposition, who are all important and they must all be happy with the way the game is being played. I played for Kibworth 1st XV when the ball rarely went further than Staffy or Roger Bruce and it was no more than a 10-man game most of the time, and as a fullback, I got very very cold.
It is my view that you need to work on all aspects of the game and to ignore the way we attack, at both club and international levels is shortsighted and doomed to failure.

[GB72]

A fair point and I suspect that having trained in all facets, it opens up further game plans if one is not working. You need an attacking backs option when the power and kicking game is not working.

[Tigerbeat]

Its all well having a good attack, but without a defence results would be worse. The defence is the foundation of the team and attack to follow. England finished 3rd at the World Cup and since then personnel have retired, moved abroad and injuries picked up. For example, Mitchell and Smith, both half backs out injured. There has not been a settled team and would expect once the selections become regular, the team will develop as a unit and build confidence. This is a rebuild to the next World Cup and Ireland / France are at their peak at the moment.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

One way to view Borthwick is Tigers shambolic start to last season as much as our success the season before, IMHO that shows as much if not more to his coaching as the trophy the season before.

[Leicestertinytiger]

SB was our coach for two and half seasons. We were only good in the second winning season after he had the luxury of basically throwing away the first season because of Covid and trying out combinations. You don’t have this luxury as an international coach. Plus in the last season we were very inconsistent.

Then you look at this six nations and people are talking like this is his first six nations with England. If you look at 2023 six nations and this year, there is very little improvement.

That being said Ireland under Farrell or SA under Nienaber took time to bed in structures and their gameplan. But nowadays you need an all court game which has a functioning attack. The 2003 team played some great attacking rugby and you need to score tries to win international tests. Hopefully SB can bring in Catt as attack coach after this tournament.