Absolute shambles ?
I don't see any evidence of that. A difficult time, some poor results, but the club is still running well and people are working hard. A long way from 'absolute shambles ' on my scale of catastrophe. Each to their own though.
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Absolute shambles ?
No one actually knows that the club is still running well and that people are working hard so it remains just a matter of opinion. I pay to watch Tigers play rugby and what I see served up on the pitch is my only gauge. What I see is a massive tail off of form, a side bereft of ideas, devoid of confidence and the same kicking tactics that used to define Sarries. And before the flack starts it's not upto me to come up with how to fix matters or answer what would I do about it. Tigers are a business and its solely the clubs job to remedy our shortcomings, not mine.
To play devils advocate are you saying this board would have been all sweetness and light if any of Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie or Nick Easter had been appointed. For me, any one of those would have at best been cause for a lot of debate.TTRITH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pm To play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out,
But hasn't the leadership of the club changed and still in it's infancy relatively. Pincheon had been highly praised until now, the output from the Academy has been great, signings have generally been very good, the Tigers brand/DNA has to a large extent returned. Whilst she/they may have been thinking about or had some kind of plan for Borthwick leaving over the Summer I am not sure they could have planned too much for a mid-season change. It could be that there is a bias towards a younger coach, I don't know but it's seems a bit premature to say that based on such limited evidence.
You sound quite pessimistic and you seem to be making a lot of guesses/assumptions in regard of what Pincheon and inner circle will do. Perhaps she will make a mess of it, I don't know. I wouldn't like to have all that weight on my shoulders tbh. But I will wait and see what occurs and make judgements as it unfolds. At the minute I just want to see us get through the 6N period in with a shout of qualifying for Champions Cup and see how far we can go in this years competition. I still have hope if not expecation.TTRITH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pmThe noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.
As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.
If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.
Difficult times on the pitch yes, but club in absolute shambles ??? Still employing staff, paying wages, community based projects, recruiting, attracting media contracts and sponsors.....I think.sapajo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:17 pmNo one actually knows that the club is still running well and that people are working hard so it remains just a matter of opinion. I pay to watch Tigers play rugby and what I see served up on the pitch is my only gauge. What I see is a massive tail off of form, a side bereft of ideas, devoid of confidence and the same kicking tactics that used to define Sarries. And before the flack starts it's not upto me to come up with how to fix matters or answer what would I do about it. Tigers are a business and its solely the clubs job to remedy our shortcomings, not mine.
Conversely you have provided no evidence to suggest the club is falling apart at the seams and that everyone at the club has downed tools, yet you so confidently claim that is the case. It is not your job to fix any problems inside the club, but if it is as simple as you have made out, let's hear some suggestions.sapajo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:17 pmNo one actually knows that the club is still running well and that people are working hard so it remains just a matter of opinion. I pay to watch Tigers play rugby and what I see served up on the pitch is my only gauge. What I see is a massive tail off of form, a side bereft of ideas, devoid of confidence and the same kicking tactics that used to define Sarries. And before the flack starts it's not upto me to come up with how to fix matters or answer what would I do about it. Tigers are a business and its solely the clubs job to remedy our shortcomings, not mine.
Excellent postIan Cant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:57 pm For goodness sake.
Poor Wigglesworth and the club have put England first.
We have been underperforming all season and Wigglesworth wasn’t in charge until halfway through the season.
I think many of us loyal supporters( since I was 11) know we cannot promote the game to the younger population if, like on Saturday, we ( and Saints) cannot play our internationals.
Saracens next: again: too many top class players missing.
INSANE. MADDENING. FRUSTRATING.
But will give my full voice home and away to get behind whoever plays!
Given you took the time to reply to me, only fair i should reply back to you!TTRITH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pmTo play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out, but I do think the club favour a younger coach that they can perhaps pay less whilst they prove themselves. Sir Kev, remember, was unproven at this level.AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:43 pm I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense Sapajo. What top quality coach that was available and wanted to come to Leicester when Steve & Kev left, that Leicester overlooked? Let's hear it. It is very easy to throw pop shots at the club, so let's hear some suggestions whom Tigers overlooked when giving the interim role to Wiggy. With some evidence as well that we did not sound them out.
If this is all one big conspiracy from the start to do this on the cheap and give it to Wiggy long-term, why did we sound out Lancaster in the summer? Why have we interviewed McFarland? Why is Townsend such a leading candidate for the job? If it was always going to be Wiggy because he is cheap, why have we paid a load of money to Oval Insights to search for a new HC? We are undergoing an interview process, with candidates interviewing for the job, both internal and external. If Wiggy gets the job, he would be a risk as it is probably too early for him, but at least we have gone through an interview process to get there.
The club is not immune from criticism, but some of the stuff lobbed at the club is getting silly. If we as fans are being screwed over by Wiggy being named Interim, let's hear the evidence that backs that up.
The noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.
As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.
If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.
All I ask, of a very measured response, is to not mention about Oval Insights. We've been here before, and it is alleged that the findings were overruled in favour of Matt O'Connor. The club don't have the greatest of track records with bringing in Head Coaches/Director of Rugby's - not appalling but certainly some big mistakes in there. And you're always going to remember the mistakes over the successes in the hard times.
I agree some of the comments are a bit extreme, but I do understand some of the concern. Whilst the RFU have thrown us a hospital pass, the club should have been prepared for Borthwick leaving. I think the world and their dog knew Steve was off at the end of the season. Perhaps, and hopefully, Andrea has this all sorted, the new head coach is already signed up and is currently thinking about their staff for next season. We'll see.
That’s even worse! Wasting money on a consultancy firm on a list most of us on here could knock up!AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:02 pmGiven you took the time to reply to me, only fair i should reply back to you!TTRITH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pmTo play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out, but I do think the club favour a younger coach that they can perhaps pay less whilst they prove themselves. Sir Kev, remember, was unproven at this level.AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:43 pm I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense Sapajo. What top quality coach that was available and wanted to come to Leicester when Steve & Kev left, that Leicester overlooked? Let's hear it. It is very easy to throw pop shots at the club, so let's hear some suggestions whom Tigers overlooked when giving the interim role to Wiggy. With some evidence as well that we did not sound them out.
If this is all one big conspiracy from the start to do this on the cheap and give it to Wiggy long-term, why did we sound out Lancaster in the summer? Why have we interviewed McFarland? Why is Townsend such a leading candidate for the job? If it was always going to be Wiggy because he is cheap, why have we paid a load of money to Oval Insights to search for a new HC? We are undergoing an interview process, with candidates interviewing for the job, both internal and external. If Wiggy gets the job, he would be a risk as it is probably too early for him, but at least we have gone through an interview process to get there.
The club is not immune from criticism, but some of the stuff lobbed at the club is getting silly. If we as fans are being screwed over by Wiggy being named Interim, let's hear the evidence that backs that up.
The noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.
As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.
If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.
All I ask, of a very measured response, is to not mention about Oval Insights. We've been here before, and it is alleged that the findings were overruled in favour of Matt O'Connor. The club don't have the greatest of track records with bringing in Head Coaches/Director of Rugby's - not appalling but certainly some big mistakes in there. And you're always going to remember the mistakes over the successes in the hard times.
I agree some of the comments are a bit extreme, but I do understand some of the concern. Whilst the RFU have thrown us a hospital pass, the club should have been prepared for Borthwick leaving. I think the world and their dog knew Steve was off at the end of the season. Perhaps, and hopefully, Andrea has this all sorted, the new head coach is already signed up and is currently thinking about their staff for next season. We'll see.
On those names mentioned, Jones has been courting Australia for the last 14 months so I can't see that being realistic, Proudfoot had a disappointing reign with England, Rennie was still in charge of the Australia job when Steve left so would have been unavailable, however now he has left I hope we have at least sounded him out. Easter has not had a HC job, so the exact same position as Wiggy. This is the issue I have with people moaning about Wiggy being given the Interim gig (not you, but across the board) The club really did have limited options in terms of an Interim HC. It is not ideal that we are in this position, but we are where we are, we just have to find the best way forward.
In terms of Oval Insights, I think it is a fair comment to make, because they are being used differently to the previous process. This time around we are using them to provide us with a shortlist of candidates, candidates that we are now interviewing. They are not headhunters like before, but a data tool to help us identify who would be good to speak to. We use them in our player recruitment, so I have no issue that we use it to help us with our HC recruitment.
The club has known that Steve would be off at the end of the season, the club would not have expected him to go mid-season. It has already been said publicly by Andrea that all plans were based upon Steve leaving in the Summer. Indeed he probably told us that was going to happen. As a result, given all the work was based upon Steve not leaving now, but later on, it is difficult in my opinion for too much blame to be levelled at the club for where it finds itself presently. There was not a long list of people to come in on an Interim basis in December, and we know that it is extremely difficult to bring someone in long-term now as options are again very limited. Indeed if we had made a long-term decision back in December, everyone would have accused the club of panicking and rushing into a decision.
We have a shortlist for the job, we are now working our way through it. Personally I think it will either be Wiggy or Gregor, both of which have positives and negatives attached to them.
Anyone can put a list together. The data provides you with some evidence as to how much of a fit they are for the club, and allows you to compare. The exact same process as with our player recruitment. Why do you think our player recruitment is better now? Because we use the data to compare and contrast and give us value for money.Scott1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:04 pmThat’s even worse! Wasting money on a consultancy firm on a list most of us on here could knock up!AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:02 pmGiven you took the time to reply to me, only fair i should reply back to you!TTRITH wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pm
To play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out, but I do think the club favour a younger coach that they can perhaps pay less whilst they prove themselves. Sir Kev, remember, was unproven at this level.
The noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.
As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.
If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.
All I ask, of a very measured response, is to not mention about Oval Insights. We've been here before, and it is alleged that the findings were overruled in favour of Matt O'Connor. The club don't have the greatest of track records with bringing in Head Coaches/Director of Rugby's - not appalling but certainly some big mistakes in there. And you're always going to remember the mistakes over the successes in the hard times.
I agree some of the comments are a bit extreme, but I do understand some of the concern. Whilst the RFU have thrown us a hospital pass, the club should have been prepared for Borthwick leaving. I think the world and their dog knew Steve was off at the end of the season. Perhaps, and hopefully, Andrea has this all sorted, the new head coach is already signed up and is currently thinking about their staff for next season. We'll see.
On those names mentioned, Jones has been courting Australia for the last 14 months so I can't see that being realistic, Proudfoot had a disappointing reign with England, Rennie was still in charge of the Australia job when Steve left so would have been unavailable, however now he has left I hope we have at least sounded him out. Easter has not had a HC job, so the exact same position as Wiggy. This is the issue I have with people moaning about Wiggy being given the Interim gig (not you, but across the board) The club really did have limited options in terms of an Interim HC. It is not ideal that we are in this position, but we are where we are, we just have to find the best way forward.
In terms of Oval Insights, I think it is a fair comment to make, because they are being used differently to the previous process. This time around we are using them to provide us with a shortlist of candidates, candidates that we are now interviewing. They are not headhunters like before, but a data tool to help us identify who would be good to speak to. We use them in our player recruitment, so I have no issue that we use it to help us with our HC recruitment.
The club has known that Steve would be off at the end of the season, the club would not have expected him to go mid-season. It has already been said publicly by Andrea that all plans were based upon Steve leaving in the Summer. Indeed he probably told us that was going to happen. As a result, given all the work was based upon Steve not leaving now, but later on, it is difficult in my opinion for too much blame to be levelled at the club for where it finds itself presently. There was not a long list of people to come in on an Interim basis in December, and we know that it is extremely difficult to bring someone in long-term now as options are again very limited. Indeed if we had made a long-term decision back in December, everyone would have accused the club of panicking and rushing into a decision.
We have a shortlist for the job, we are now working our way through it. Personally I think it will either be Wiggy or Gregor, both of which have positives and negatives attached to them.