LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Rugbygramps]

A little more than that. With Feya Waboso given a license to roam where he fancies Baxter possibly feels he needs more solidity at the back rather than Hodge going awol too

[INTHESINBIN]

Bassett was always solid for Wasps, same as Rogerson.
We have too many "Solid" players IMO

I think that is a good point but one I see slightly differently. In an ideal world you have excellent first choice players with solid back up an developing third choices. Our success in developing and attracting international talent has meant that we are too often left with the solid players are our first choice option. I am not sure how any team gets along with 3 front row, 2 second rows, a number 8, scrum half, fly half, a centre and a full back on international duty. Suddenly means you are putting out a good squad rather than an excellent one. Yes, I know clashes are less now but with rest and injury, we are still likely to have to put out those solid players in all but a handful of league matches.

I feel that some positions you def need a solid option behind the first choice
Front row
Lock
Fly half
Outside centre
Full back

But the successful teams sacrifice depth and trust the youth more in favour of more quality in depth elsewhere

Back row is a massive one a lot of teams have more top end quality in compared to us.
Centres is another example

we have far too much money spent on the back 3 I feel. I also feel that Scrum half has gotten too heavy loaded with JVP, Youngs, Whiteley when you compare to say Bath, Saints, Sarries and even Quine

I think the problem you will find is players do not want to be bench warmers behind those who get picked every week, especially if they only get to come on at 75 minutes. If there is no rotation, you cannot ask for 'solid' players to give away their chance of being in the starting XV.

[westwinds31]

But the successful teams sacrifice depth and trust the youth more in favour of more quality in depth elsewhere

I believe one of the issues that Tigers have encountered is that we're maybe relying too much on that batch of youngsters who have come through the system (Steward, JVP, Martin, Reffell et al) - aside from Wiese and Montoya, I think our best players have been from that group of early 20s players, that have all come through together. So in a way, we've trusted in youth (Borthwick trusted them) but the depth has let us down, but success hasn't materialised.

[RagingBull]

I think that is a good point but one I see slightly differently. In an ideal world you have excellent first choice players with solid back up an developing third choices. Our success in developing and attracting international talent has meant that we are too often left with the solid players are our first choice option. I am not sure how any team gets along with 3 front row, 2 second rows, a number 8, scrum half, fly half, a centre and a full back on international duty. Suddenly means you are putting out a good squad rather than an excellent one. Yes, I know clashes are less now but with rest and injury, we are still likely to have to put out those solid players in all but a handful of league matches.

I feel that some positions you def need a solid option behind the first choice
Front row
Lock
Fly half
Outside centre
Full back

But the successful teams sacrifice depth and trust the youth more in favour of more quality in depth elsewhere

Back row is a massive one a lot of teams have more top end quality in compared to us.
Centres is another example

we have far too much money spent on the back 3 I feel. I also feel that Scrum half has gotten too heavy loaded with JVP, Youngs, Whiteley when you compare to say Bath, Saints, Sarries and even Quine

I think the problem you will find is players do not want to be bench warmers behind those who get picked every week, especially if they only get to come on at 75 minutes. If there is no rotation, you cannot ask for 'solid' players to give away their chance of being in the starting XV.

I think you find other teams don’t seem to have that big an issue

I bet if you look though the squad playing numbers, we rotate more than people think especially back row.

I feel our problem is scouting doesn’t seem to be gelling that much.

Look at Saints scrum halves behind Mitchell it’s basically now
Mitchell
Tom James ( ex championship player)
2 academy lads

Whereas we have
JVP
Youngs
Whiteley

Which one is going to take up more cap?

Backs has been a big issue with this I feel. Our inability for decades to bring in wingers that are talented through the system, I think like only two Saints back 3 players didn’t come through their academy.

And with these saving they are able to create a pretty nice back row depth.

Same with sarries they dont sign big name back 3 players but they do have a back up back row that is on par with our first choice nearly

[RagingBull]

But the successful teams sacrifice depth and trust the youth more in favour of more quality in depth elsewhere

I believe one of the issues that Tigers have encountered is that we're maybe relying too much on that batch of youngsters who have come through the system (Steward, JVP, Martin, Reffell et al) - aside from Wiese and Montoya, I think our best players have been from that group of early 20s players, that have all come through together. So in a way, we've trusted in youth (Borthwick trusted them) but the depth has let us down, but success hasn't materialised.

The thing is we seem to trust youth if they are only starting quality.

Look at Edward’s and Ilionr for example neither have gotten many chances with the first 23. And yet if you could bring them up over say Rogerson or Whiteley then we save that cap that could afford to get that bit extra starting quailing depth player

[GB72]

But the successful teams sacrifice depth and trust the youth more in favour of more quality in depth elsewhere

I believe one of the issues that Tigers have encountered is that we're maybe relying too much on that batch of youngsters who have come through the system (Steward, JVP, Martin, Reffell et al) - aside from Wiese and Montoya, I think our best players have been from that group of early 20s players, that have all come through together. So in a way, we've trusted in youth (Borthwick trusted them) but the depth has let us down, but success hasn't materialised.

The thing is we seem to trust youth if they are only starting quality.

Look at Edward’s and Ilionr for example neither have gotten many chances with the first 23. And yet if you could bring them up over say Rogerson or Whiteley then we save that cap that could afford to get that bit extra starting quailing depth player

The trick though is to find those starting quality players who we are not going to lose to international duty regularly. I am not sure our first team can handle many more international absences be it due to matches, rest or injury and the lack of training with the team is another issue.

[RagingBull]

The trick is to make better use of scouting the South hemisphere

[CrumblingTerrace]

Watching Sarries play imagine if we had managed to secure Cinti and González as opposed to Bassett and Rogerson.

I honestly feel that the way other clubs capitalised on the 3 demised clubs players compared to us has been one of if not the biggest factor in the swing in a way.

Prob only 4 clubs didn't really capitalise much and only Sale are doing that well from those 4
Saints - Pearson, Munga, Langdon, Smith, Haffar all reagular 23 players
Sarries - Parton, Willis, Hoskins, Hartley, Cinti, Gonzalez
Bath - Lawrence, Alfie, Hill, Blackett,
Exeter - Feyi-Waboso, Fisilau, Frost,
Quins - Porter, CCS, Joesph
Bristol - BJVR, Oghre, Batley, Heward, Grondona,

This is a very good point - we often hear about how the league has gone up in quality because the top talent is compressed into 10 teams, not 13. We picked up squad players, we didn't improve our starting XV. The other top teams did.

It's all hindsight now, of course, but as we lose Jasper... Barbeary, Fisilau and CCS have become available and passed us by.

[RunTigerRun]

The trick is to make better use of scouting the South hemisphere I feel

Something Jan McGinty was very good at I feel.

[RunTigerRun]

Watching Sarries play imagine if we had managed to secure Cinti and González as opposed to Bassett and Rogerson.

I honestly feel that the way other clubs capitalised on the 3 demised clubs players compared to us has been one of if not the biggest factor in the swing in a way.

Prob only 4 clubs didn't really capitalise much and only Sale are doing that well from those 4
Saints - Pearson, Munga, Langdon, Smith, Haffar all reagular 23 players
Sarries - Parton, Willis, Hoskins, Hartley, Cinti, Gonzalez
Bath - Lawrence, Alfie, Hill, Blackett,
Exeter - Feyi-Waboso, Fisilau, Frost,
Quins - Porter, CCS, Joesph
Bristol - BJVR, Oghre, Batley, Heward, Grondona,

This is a very good point - we often hear about how the league has gone up in quality because the top talent is compressed into 10 teams, not 13. We picked up squad players, we didn't improve our starting XV. The other top teams did.

It's all hindsight now, of course, but as we lose Jasper... Barbeary, Fisilau and CCS have become available and passed us by.

I don’t want to comment on Beets without him even having played a game for the club, but I agree with your point. Imagine if we had CCS or Fisilau for example learning from Jasper for a year, then stepping up and being able to bring in Beets to learn from them and rotate.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course!

[GB72]

I would be interested to see how recruitment has been impacted by the TV deal. From what I have read, clubs are getting a fair chunk less under the new deal and so we will see if that impacts recruitment across the board. I think Bristol have already said that spending plans have been reduced as a result.

Faced with that an no deal signed yet for the Champions Cup TV rights, I can only see very cagey spending on recruitment until that it settled.

[GB72]

Watching Sarries play imagine if we had managed to secure Cinti and González as opposed to Bassett and Rogerson.

I honestly feel that the way other clubs capitalised on the 3 demised clubs players compared to us has been one of if not the biggest factor in the swing in a way.

Prob only 4 clubs didn't really capitalise much and only Sale are doing that well from those 4
Saints - Pearson, Munga, Langdon, Smith, Haffar all reagular 23 players
Sarries - Parton, Willis, Hoskins, Hartley, Cinti, Gonzalez
Bath - Lawrence, Alfie, Hill, Blackett,
Exeter - Feyi-Waboso, Fisilau, Frost,
Quins - Porter, CCS, Joesph
Bristol - BJVR, Oghre, Batley, Heward, Grondona,

This is a very good point - we often hear about how the league has gone up in quality because the top talent is compressed into 10 teams, not 13. We picked up squad players, we didn't improve our starting XV. The other top teams did.

It's all hindsight now, of course, but as we lose Jasper... Barbeary, Fisilau and CCS have become available and passed us by.

I don’t want to comment on Beets without him even having played a game for the club, but I agree with your point. Imagine if we had CCS or Fisilau for example learning from Jasper for a year, then stepping up and being able to bring in Beets to learn from them and rotate.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course!

It will be interesting to see how this pans out in a couple of years. There are a number of players that have really developed since their clubs collapsed who could have been picked up for a song but will be looking for significantly more at the next negotiation. Few clubs going to be hit with their next generation of players reaching international standard like we were. Suspect that Northampton's wage bill may take a hammering at renewal time but that is the cost of success.

[RagingBull]

The trick is to make better use of scouting the South hemisphere

To expand on this.

Because to me the end of season is more important than the start. As the current league set up is at least.

I don’t know if many would agree with me but I would love to be able to sign a All black on a Jordie Barrett style contract of post AI’s till end of season or something

Imagine being able to sign say Taniela Tupou for the end of season run in.

[Rugbygramps]

IMO the whole sourcing of southern hemisphere players has changed caused by a number of factors. The emergence of 2 competitive pacific islands super rugby teams, especially the Drua. Money in Japan meaning a number of New Zealanders are turning there for career breaks, with a shorter season and higher pay.
South African sides appear to be better funded meaning players are returning home, or not even leaving.

There are a number of players just below test level, especially in New Zealand who could be possibly tempted over, I honestly don’t know, such as Umaga-Jensen, and Garden-Bachop who could be great additions to a squad

[RagingBull]

I didn’t think the landscape has changed that much, the PI super rugby teams will prob make it easier to spot.

From what I’ve seen the French and Japanese clubs haven’t strongly recruited from them either.