Tigers v Sale (A) - Premiership - Friday 10th May 2024 - KO: 7:45pm

[SETiger]

The likes of Clive (Eddie Jones is another prime example) are regularly guilty of trying to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they're trying far too hard to look clever.

Steward just needs to play a bit better. That's all.

The same could be said of Tigers as a whole at the moment. We don't need to move Kata to the wing, Steward to centre, Dan Cole to 9 or Chessum to goalkeeper. We just need to play a bit better - focus a bit better in defence, be a bit more accurate in possession and make slightly better decisions.

It's not rocket science, and it doesn't need to be.

Lot of sympathy for this viewpoint. I wonder how much a successful coach just gets out of the way of top-quality players. Of course if you're trying to get the best out of a squad constructed with compromise, it might not be so simple.

The argument against moving players around different shirt numbers is, to my mind, that you want the players to have consistency and certainty about their place in the game plan. Back three is the most interchangable set of positions, so not too surprising that Freddie and Mike Brown can be flexible. Ollie Chessum moving between lock and 6 is the other switch that looks fairly uncomplicated. Apart from that, after a season where Tigers were desperately in need of some continuity, I wouldn't expect lots of experimentation now or in the near future. I doubt if two fag-end games and a pre-season is enough to turn Freddie into a really top class centre, even if he didn't go to New Zealand.

(by the way, what was the most revolutionary thing Clive ever did, selection-wise? Can't think beyond him backing Robinson, which really wasn't such a long-shot).

Honestly, that's the route to success in any situation, but it depends on you having top quality people! Get out of their way, support them, and where necessary guide them.

Indeed, but to be fair, our squad has "compromise" written through it like a stick of rock.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Montoya out injured is never something we want to see, especially as he came off surprisingly early vs Bristol

[amazing tiger]

STARTING XV

15 Freddie Steward [86]
14 Jamie Shillcock [25]
13 Matt Scott [78]
12 Dan Kelly [79]
11 Ollie Hassell-Collins [20]
10 Handré Pollard [31]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [71]
1 Francois van Wyk [52]
2 Charlie Clare [93]
3 Dan Cole [321]
4 George Martin [64]
5 Harry Wells [197]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (C) [105]
7 Tommy Reffell [112]
8 Jasper Wiese [77]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Nic Dolly [31]
17 James Whitcombe [50]
18 Joe Heyes [139]
19 Finn Carnduff [12]
20 Olly Cracknell [41]
21 Tom Whiteley [28]
22 Phil Cokanasiga [18]
23 Solomone Kata [17]

Very strong squad although we really are short of wingers aren’t we is Harry Simmons injured would have thought he might have got a shout considering how short we are! I’m not hugely confident for tomorrow our record there isn’t great but I hope to be pleasantly surprised as I am off to sale

[TigerFeetSteve]

STARTING XV

15 Freddie Steward [86]
14 Jamie Shillcock [25]
13 Matt Scott [78]
12 Dan Kelly [79]
11 Ollie Hassell-Collins [20]
10 Handré Pollard [31]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [71]
1 Francois van Wyk [52]
2 Charlie Clare [93]
3 Dan Cole [321]
4 George Martin [64]
5 Harry Wells [197]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (C) [105]
7 Tommy Reffell [112]
8 Jasper Wiese [77]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Nic Dolly [31]
17 James Whitcombe [50]
18 Joe Heyes [139]
19 Finn Carnduff [12]
20 Olly Cracknell [41]
21 Tom Whiteley [28]
22 Phil Cokanasiga [18]
23 Solomone Kata [17]

Very strong squad although we really are short of wingers aren’t we is Harry Simmons injured would have thought he might have got a shout considering how short we are! I’m not hugely confident for tomorrow our record there isn’t great but I hope to be pleasantly surprised as I am off to sale

He's been on the Injured list and had eye surgery since his detached retina vs Leinster in the group stages (James Lowe hand off to the eye)

[MrG2]

Surprised that FVW is starting, if he is leaving and thought they would try Kinder at least on the bench

[Ian Cant]

Off to Sale as usual but disappointed in that squad! No FTT for example and why not include other youngsters in the squad: I’d have started with FTT a ) because he’s more dynamic and b) to gain more experience for next season.
That pack, without Chessum too, worries me as Sale have one of the best packs in the league: front row looks like it may struggle v theirs.
Hope I’m proved wrong.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Surprised that FVW is starting, if he is leaving and thought they would try Kinder at least on the bench

Yeah hopefully they'll release the Injured list soon, suspect Cronin may also be having a knock to not be playing

[westwinds31]

I'm really really really against trying Steward in the centres. I mean, from memory, this has all come about because of his being left out by England and being shifted to the wing in a couple of games. Plus the growing social media noise around him "not being quick enough". It's madness in my opinion. He's a full back, a very good full back, an internationally proven full back. Keep him where he's best.

It's been discussed to death, not least by me, but teams have massively shifted how they play against Freddie since he broke through. He's magnificent in the air, no doubt. One of the best in the world at that skill. So what are good teams increasingly doing? They are avoiding kicking contestable balls in Freddie's direction. That's a giant issue when a players strength is weighted so far towards that skill. It's unavoidably a very easy way to neuter it. Just kick the ball elsewhere.

Most the standout international fullbacks are fly-half quality playmakers and kickers now. Going through the top 7. NZ (Barrett), SA (Willemse), France (Ramos), Scotland (Kinghorn), Argentina (Mallia). England just moved to Furbank for that reason. Keenan for Ireland is the closest to a traditional fullback. Even Keenan steps in at first receiver a lot more than Freddie though.

Thinking longer term about Freddie fulfilling his abundant talent at the international level. He's a very different player compared where fullback is moving at the top level. He isn't that sort of playmaker. I'd also say he's the least accurate and varied kicking option of the lot. He must be the slowest player listed there too.

What's Freddie's next best skill after high ball work? I'd say it's getting over the gain line. Which as a back is most valuable at centre. It's also one of the most valuable skills in rugby if (big if) it can be frequently utilised. I also think his size would be more useful defensively at centre. Whereas in the back three he can be caught flat footed at times in one on ones. Whilst you can still use his aerial skills, just do it chase kicks rather than waiting to receive (or increasingly not receive) kicks.

It's difficult to use a fullback on crash ball as it takes him out the back field. The same with regularly chasing kicks. I feel we have an incredible athlete there but he's currently in a position where that athleticism is mainly being utilised through hoping the opposition keep kicking contestable high balls to him. I think good teams will simply do so less and less, with that one of our best talents ability to influence the game will be less and less. Whereas, if he can transition to centre, there is a much clearer route to get him into the game on our terms rather than the oppositions.

Thank you for attending my TED Talk.

You make some good points. I mean, the fact that other teams are looking to adapt their game based on another player having specific skills isn't something new, it's part of a tactical plan that any side would look to implement, against any side, based on where they think they can exploit potential weaknesses, so Steward is no different to every other international player that made an impact. Are teams deliberately avoiding him by kicking elsewhere or not kicking ? I'm not so sure. A good "kick to compete" gives the attacking team a 50/50 chance and if you can get in the air before Steward (or anyone for that matter), it's still a much used weapon to get the ball back and make good ground.

It will be interesting to see on the Summer tour whether they persist with Furbank or go back to Steward. I'm not entirely sure where the "he's slow" thing has come from. There have been occasions where our back 3 have been exposed and he's been beaten by someone who's already at full pace and he's on the turn - I'm not sure that he is slow if I'm honest and would be interested to see the stats of him vs others over 10/20/30 metres. I doubt we will get those but I think it's a perception thing more than anything. A lot of the full backs that you mention have a solid back line in place that is well organised, so if there is a line break, they're in a better position given the work that has occurred in front of them. Steward, for a long time was a sitting duck at 15, last man as you'd expect but having to mop up all the errors in front of him, which a) exposed him and b) made it look worse than it actually was. Now we've got Felix Jones, we're more robust.

Steward has definitely improved his metres made through contact, it's been noticeable for Tigers I think. Again, the All Black back line can manipulate space and Barrett glides through like a gazelle and it looks great, but the creativity around him puts him into that position. Of course he has to be on the same page, but all I'm saying is, England aren't there yet...yet.

Going back to the centre move, your 12 would normally organise and run the defence. It's not an easy thing to do in a short period of time. Or if he were at 13, again, it's the most exposed position on the pitch and the perceived lack of pace would be a factor, according to some . Both positions are not easy, as our actual centres have shown this season !!

...and now the weather...

[CrumblingTerrace]

A rather unfortunate typo in the press release for this week's team announcement!

“We can’t change Bristol, or this season, but we can put in two eight-minute performances in these next two games that we can be proud of. “

[MrG2]

Surprised that FVW is starting, if he is leaving and thought they would try Kinder at least on the bench

Yeah hopefully they'll release the Injured list soon, suspect Cronin may also be having a knock to not be playing

That’s fine but why not switch Francois and Jimmy around and have him starting

[ourla]

Sale Sharks Starting XV:  

15. Sam James, 14. Tom Roebuck, 13. Rob du Preez, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Tom O’Flaherty, 10. George Ford, 9. Gus Warr, 1. Bevan Rodd, 2. Tommy Taylor, 3. James Harper, 4. Cobus Wiese, 5. Hyron Andrews, 6. Ben Curry ©, 7. Sam Dugdale, 8. JL du Preez.  

Replacements:  

16. Agustin Creevy, 17. Si McIntyre, 18. WillGriff John, 19. Ben Bamber, 20. Ernst van Rhyn, 21. Raffi Quirke, 22. Rekeiti Ma’asi White, 23. Arron Reed.

[amazing tiger]

STARTING XV

15 Freddie Steward [86]
14 Jamie Shillcock [25]
13 Matt Scott [78]
12 Dan Kelly [79]
11 Ollie Hassell-Collins [20]
10 Handré Pollard [31]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [71]
1 Francois van Wyk [52]
2 Charlie Clare [93]
3 Dan Cole [321]
4 George Martin [64]
5 Harry Wells [197]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (C) [105]
7 Tommy Reffell [112]
8 Jasper Wiese [77]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Nic Dolly [31]
17 James Whitcombe [50]
18 Joe Heyes [139]
19 Finn Carnduff [12]
20 Olly Cracknell [41]
21 Tom Whiteley [28]
22 Phil Cokanasiga [18]
23 Solomone Kata [17]

Very strong squad although we really are short of wingers aren’t we is Harry Simmons injured would have thought he might have got a shout considering how short we are! I’m not hugely confident for tomorrow our record there isn’t great but I hope to be pleasantly surprised as I am off to sale

He's been on the Injured list and had eye surgery since his detached retina vs Leinster in the group stages (James Lowe hand off to the eye)

I remember the handoff to the eye didn’t realise he’d done that much damage shame because he looked ok in the few games he got to play

[Stephen18]

Seems about as strong as we could go with chessum and Montoyas injury, expect for as others have mentioned van wyke starting over whitcombe, surely these kind of injuries show we need to be giving the young players here more game time to get them upto or as close to the 1st choice standard as possible rather than an average player who’s leaving game time. And I can not see any point Cokanasiga on the bench over any academy back 3 player especially after the reviews kinder got from last week. Again he’s announced as leaving and we have a replacement centre on the bench seems another missed opportunity to give players game time which is starting to seem like the story of the season.

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As it's eurovision weekend, I can see us getting nil points!!

[Knightonian]

Win and I am wrong

Lose and this is poor management again

I expect there to be lots of injuries for this side to be picked

We are playing and picking people who will not be here next year - sorry but Dolly and Cockasinga do nothing for next year

Could make other arguements for players like FVW but why oh why are we playing a full back / fly half on the wing

Also whilst I rate Hanro - as Captain it didn’t, hasn’t and won’t go well - I’m sorry but the interactions with referees on the pitch haven’t gone well

When he gave it up for Montoya there was a significant improvement in the team and him when he lost the responsibility

Is Ben Youngs no longer fit, not rated or now official 3rd Choice

If this is the reality of our team either we have a lot of injury problems across the board, Dan needs to be able to bring in / change lots of players or and I’m leaning to this - something is very wrong somewhere