Tigers v Sale (A) - Premiership - Friday 10th May 2024 - KO: 7:45pm

[TigerFeetSteve]

Personally I'd go full strength with two caveats, all the 23 to be those here next season & a few rewards for the game last weekend.

Steward
Bassett/Kinder
Kelly
Kata
Hassell-Collins
Pollard
Van Poortvliet
Cronin
Montoya
Cole
Martin
Chessum
Liebenberg
Reffell
Hatherall

Theobald-Thomas
Whitcombe
Heyes
Carnduff
Ilione
Allan
Shillcock
Kinder/Gourlay

[westwinds31]

I'm really really really against trying Steward in the centres. I mean, from memory, this has all come about because of his being left out by England and being shifted to the wing in a couple of games. Plus the growing social media noise around him "not being quick enough". It's madness in my opinion. He's a full back, a very good full back, an internationally proven full back. Keep him where he's best.

[RunTigerRun]

Agreed on Steward. We have some good centres in the squad, and some promising ones coming through as evidenced on Friday vs Black Lion. We have limited player availability in the back 3 with some hefty injuries and he’s said he’s happy at 15.

Unless he comes out and says I want to give it a go, or has in no uncertain terms been told by Borthwick he won’t play at 15 for England unless xyz I’d keep him at 15 or at worst on the wing if the game plan suits.

For sale I’d like to see:

Steward, Kinder, OHC
Scott, Kelly
Pollard, JVP
Carnduff, Reffell, Liebenberg
Martin, Chessum
Heyes, Montoya, Whitcombe

FTT, Archie van der Flier, Cole, Hatherall, Wiese, Allan, Wilkinson/Woodward/Myall, Kata

Some mix of first team experience, rewarding last week and looking at some combinations/options for next season.

With the exception of Wiese and possibly Scott, whilst I admire and appreciate all that the leavers have done for the club, I’d rather see the minutes given to those who will be at the club next season and moving forward.

[ABClub]

Now is not the time to experiment, Steward at fullback, Shillcock on the bench. Kelly and Scott in the centre with Kata on wing although Kinder is a viable option, last week he showed there was more to his game than just his run for the try, either player could have an impact off the bench.

If stability had done anything much this season, then I'd agree. It hasn't though. Particularly in the midfield. I think most of us had 12.Kelly 13.Porter as our 1st choice going into the season. That partnership played 5 of the first 6 rounds and frequently looked like they'd met in the carpark when it came to defensive alignment. It's been a problem position for most the season.

Since the biggest midseason training block I can remember, we've lost 5 and scraped past a Falcons squad put together with a budget somewhere between ProD2 and the make a wish foundation. If now's a time to stick rather than twist, then others are seeing things I haven't.

I'm not suggesting that centre partnership to throw this weekends game out of some morbid curiosity. I don't have a fetish to see if we can recreate the Mauro Bergamasco at 9 debacle. I just don't see the "safer" options as safe. Which feels somewhat justified given we've been mostly dreadful since the season restarted.

With the right tactics I genuinely think Freddie at centre could be excellent and increase our chances of winning. Admittedly, tackling the opposition and catching the ball would also improve those chances currently, but, still, I think Freddie at centre could be fantastic.

[ABClub]

I'm really really really against trying Steward in the centres. I mean, from memory, this has all come about because of his being left out by England and being shifted to the wing in a couple of games. Plus the growing social media noise around him "not being quick enough". It's madness in my opinion. He's a full back, a very good full back, an internationally proven full back. Keep him where he's best.

It's been discussed to death, not least by me, but teams have massively shifted how they play against Freddie since he broke through. He's magnificent in the air, no doubt. One of the best in the world at that skill. So what are good teams increasingly doing? They are avoiding kicking contestable balls in Freddie's direction. That's a giant issue when a players strength is weighted so far towards that skill. It's unavoidably a very easy way to neuter it. Just kick the ball elsewhere.

Most the standout international fullbacks are fly-half quality playmakers and kickers now. Going through the top 7. NZ (Barrett), SA (Willemse), France (Ramos), Scotland (Kinghorn), Argentina (Mallia). England just moved to Furbank for that reason. Keenan for Ireland is the closest to a traditional fullback. Even Keenan steps in at first receiver a lot more than Freddie though.

Thinking longer term about Freddie fulfilling his abundant talent at the international level. He's a very different player compared where fullback is moving at the top level. He isn't that sort of playmaker. I'd also say he's the least accurate and varied kicking option of the lot. He must be the slowest player listed there too.

What's Freddie's next best skill after high ball work? I'd say it's getting over the gain line. Which as a back is most valuable at centre. It's also one of the most valuable skills in rugby if (big if) it can be frequently utilised. I also think his size would be more useful defensively at centre. Whereas in the back three he can be caught flat footed at times in one on ones. Whilst you can still use his aerial skills, just do it chase kicks rather than waiting to receive (or increasingly not receive) kicks.

It's difficult to use a fullback on crash ball as it takes him out the back field. The same with regularly chasing kicks. I feel we have an incredible athlete there but he's currently in a position where that athleticism is mainly being utilised through hoping the opposition keep kicking contestable high balls to him. I think good teams will simply do so less and less, with that one of our best talents ability to influence the game will be less and less. Whereas, if he can transition to centre, there is a much clearer route to get him into the game on our terms rather than the oppositions.

Thank you for attending my TED Talk.

[KiwiTig]

Very valid points and worth my TED membership fee

[sam16111986]

It's worth noting that Freddie Steward played 13 for Loughborough University when he had a spell there. Not sure if he played alongside Dan Kelly at 12 as Loughborough Uni have effectively two squads with one for BUCS and one for the national league. Dan and Freddie certainly know each other well, think they used to be housemates.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Interview from Steward with the Telegraph on the issue

Several observers, including Sir Clive Woodward, have wondered how a more radical move to inside centre might go. “It’s been mentioned here and there,” laughs Steward. “And it’s never been something I’ve given much attention to. I’ll stick to the back three for now, but you never know.”

[CrumblingTerrace]

Freddie is a great fullback. There just happens to be another English lad down the road in George Furbank who's had a better season. And arguably, another down the M1 in Tyrone Green.

All evidence points to Freddie being a model pro, so rather than changing positions I think it's time for him to knuckle down and get that England shirt back!

[Tiglon]

The likes of Clive (Eddie Jones is another prime example) are regularly guilty of trying to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they're trying far too hard to look clever.

Steward just needs to play a bit better. That's all.

The same could be said of Tigers as a whole at the moment. We don't need to move Kata to the wing, Steward to centre, Dan Cole to 9 or Chessum to goalkeeper. We just need to play a bit better - focus a bit better in defence, be a bit more accurate in possession and make slightly better decisions.

It's not rocket science, and it doesn't need to be.

[johnthegriff]

Kata on the wing is not an experiment, that is the position he p!ays for his country on a regular basis. I feel that the experiment of playing him at 12 has restricted our backs, he is a good player but he is not a distributor and in my opinion that is what is required in that position. Freddie is a fullback, I have seen him play centre when younger and he was good but better at 15. There is more I Freddie s game than just collecting the high ball and we have seen it often, I do feel some people are influenced.more by what they read than what they see if they watch games. Furbank is a good attacking player, I am not convinced he is a better all round England option than Freddie and actual results have not been great since he got the position.

[Tiglon]

Kata on the wing is not an experiment, that is the position he p!ays for his country on a regular basis. I feel that the experiment of playing him at 12 has restricted our backs, he is a good player but he is not a distributor and in my opinion that is what is required in that position. Freddie is a fullback, I have seen him play centre when younger and he was good but better at 15. There is more I Freddie s game than just collecting the high ball and we have seen it often, I do feel some people are influenced.more by what they read than what they see if they watch games. Furbank is a good attacking player, I am not convinced he is a better all round England option than Freddie and actual results have not been great since he got the position.

Kata only plays wing for Tonga because they have Moala, Fekitoa and Ahki in the centres (two former All Blacks and another kiwi who is pretty close to that level), and no outstanding wingers. When you have such a small pool of players you have to shuffle players around a bit. Tigers shouldn't often need to do the same.

He also played wing in his first season in rugby union, because it's an easier role to pick up quickly than centre. Since then he's only played centre for clubs. He's a centre who can play wing at a push, but his kicking and work under the high ball are not great.

[SETiger]

The likes of Clive (Eddie Jones is another prime example) are regularly guilty of trying to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they're trying far too hard to look clever.

Steward just needs to play a bit better. That's all.

The same could be said of Tigers as a whole at the moment. We don't need to move Kata to the wing, Steward to centre, Dan Cole to 9 or Chessum to goalkeeper. We just need to play a bit better - focus a bit better in defence, be a bit more accurate in possession and make slightly better decisions.

It's not rocket science, and it doesn't need to be.

Lot of sympathy for this viewpoint. I wonder how much a successful coach just gets out of the way of top-quality players. Of course if you're trying to get the best out of a squad constructed with compromise, it might not be so simple.

The argument against moving players around different shirt numbers is, to my mind, that you want the players to have consistency and certainty about their place in the game plan. Back three is the most interchangable set of positions, so not too surprising that Freddie and Mike Brown can be flexible. Ollie Chessum moving between lock and 6 is the other switch that looks fairly uncomplicated. Apart from that, after a season where Tigers were desperately in need of some continuity, I wouldn't expect lots of experimentation now or in the near future. I doubt if two fag-end games and a pre-season is enough to turn Freddie into a really top class centre, even if he didn't go to New Zealand.

(by the way, what was the most revolutionary thing Clive ever did, selection-wise? Can't think beyond him backing Robinson, which really wasn't such a long-shot).

[Tiglon]

The likes of Clive (Eddie Jones is another prime example) are regularly guilty of trying to make things more complicated than they need to be, because they're trying far too hard to look clever.

Steward just needs to play a bit better. That's all.

The same could be said of Tigers as a whole at the moment. We don't need to move Kata to the wing, Steward to centre, Dan Cole to 9 or Chessum to goalkeeper. We just need to play a bit better - focus a bit better in defence, be a bit more accurate in possession and make slightly better decisions.

It's not rocket science, and it doesn't need to be.

Lot of sympathy for this viewpoint. I wonder how much a successful coach just gets out of the way of top-quality players. Of course if you're trying to get the best out of a squad constructed with compromise, it might not be so simple.

The argument against moving players around different shirt numbers is, to my mind, that you want the players to have consistency and certainty about their place in the game plan. Back three is the most interchangable set of positions, so not too surprising that Freddie and Mike Brown can be flexible. Ollie Chessum moving between lock and 6 is the other switch that looks fairly uncomplicated. Apart from that, after a season where Tigers were desperately in need of some continuity, I wouldn't expect lots of experimentation now or in the near future. I doubt if two fag-end games and a pre-season is enough to turn Freddie into a really top class centre, even if he didn't go to New Zealand.

(by the way, what was the most revolutionary thing Clive ever did, selection-wise? Can't think beyond him backing Robinson, which really wasn't such a long-shot).

Honestly, that's the route to success in any situation, but it depends on you having top quality people! Get out of their way, support them, and where necessary guide them.

[TigerFeetSteve]

STARTING XV

15 Freddie Steward [86]
14 Jamie Shillcock [25]
13 Matt Scott [78]
12 Dan Kelly [79]
11 Ollie Hassell-Collins [20]
10 Handré Pollard [31]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [71]
1 Francois van Wyk [52]
2 Charlie Clare [93]
3 Dan Cole [321]
4 George Martin [64]
5 Harry Wells [197]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (C) [105]
7 Tommy Reffell [112]
8 Jasper Wiese [77]

REPLACEMENTS

16 Nic Dolly [31]
17 James Whitcombe [50]
18 Joe Heyes [139]
19 Finn Carnduff [12]
20 Olly Cracknell [41]
21 Tom Whiteley [28]
22 Phil Cokanasiga [18]
23 Solomone Kata [17]