SETiger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 2:11 pm
I'm not inclined to blame the head coach for everything that happens on the pitch, but I can't imagine for a second that anyone's immediate instinct is to kick away posession from the opposition half like that unless it's an attacking grubber kick or chip ahead for a runner coming through at pace. It must have been coached into them (Youngs has inspired groans from the crowd too this season).
This doesn't necessarily contradict McKellar when he says it was an on-field decision to kick, and I don't believe he meant to throw anyone under the bus. But on RL I think Adam fed him a line about sometimes things being outside of the coaches' control, and I hope in the cold light of day Dan would accept that it's up to the coaches give the players a clear direction that they can follow. There's been quite a lot of talk of "bounce of the ball" in the post-match interviews this season and I hope that can be put to bed before next season. The most successful teams don't leave it up to fate like that.
That's because the winning teams are usually the ones who got the bounce of the ball.
Look at our title winning season, so many times we got the rub of the green, a favourable refereeing decision, a lucky bounce.
SETiger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 2:11 pm
I'm not inclined to blame the head coach for everything that happens on the pitch, but I can't imagine for a second that anyone's immediate instinct is to kick away posession from the opposition half like that unless it's an attacking grubber kick or chip ahead for a runner coming through at pace. It must have been coached into them (Youngs has inspired groans from the crowd too this season).
This doesn't necessarily contradict McKellar when he says it was an on-field decision to kick, and I don't believe he meant to throw anyone under the bus. But on RL I think Adam fed him a line about sometimes things being outside of the coaches' control, and I hope in the cold light of day Dan would accept that it's up to the coaches give the players a clear direction that they can follow. There's been quite a lot of talk of "bounce of the ball" in the post-match interviews this season and I hope that can be put to bed before next season. The most successful teams don't leave it up to fate like that.
That's because the winning teams are usually the ones who got the bounce of the ball.
Look at our title winning season, so many times we got the rub of the green, a favourable refereeing decision, a lucky bounce.
A lot of off-field things aligned to give us a chance of a title, which the players took, brilliantly. We (the fans) got lucky that year. I'd suggest that the on-field luck simply made the difference between coming top and coming second - 14 points clear of third. Then, despite Saints' opportunities which they blew, we were worthy winners of the semi, and the execution of a game plan just about came out on top in the final.
But I'd argue that the more dominant sides either do not allow it to come down to the rub of the green, or else are much more savvy at playing the percentages. It's not just the lucky winner of a series of dice rolls. The best teams load the dice. We are not loading the dice at the crucial points.
SETiger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 2:11 pm
I'm not inclined to blame the head coach for everything that happens on the pitch, but I can't imagine for a second that anyone's immediate instinct is to kick away posession from the opposition half like that unless it's an attacking grubber kick or chip ahead for a runner coming through at pace. It must have been coached into them (Youngs has inspired groans from the crowd too this season).
This doesn't necessarily contradict McKellar when he says it was an on-field decision to kick, and I don't believe he meant to throw anyone under the bus. But on RL I think Adam fed him a line about sometimes things being outside of the coaches' control, and I hope in the cold light of day Dan would accept that it's up to the coaches give the players a clear direction that they can follow. There's been quite a lot of talk of "bounce of the ball" in the post-match interviews this season and I hope that can be put to bed before next season. The most successful teams don't leave it up to fate like that.
That's because the winning teams are usually the ones who got the bounce of the ball.
Look at our title winning season, so many times we got the rub of the green, a favourable refereeing decision, a lucky bounce.
A lot of off-field things aligned to give us a chance of a title, which the players took, brilliantly. We (the fans) got lucky that year. I'd suggest that the on-field luck simply made the difference between coming top and coming second - 14 points clear of third. Then, despite Saints' opportunities which they blew, we were worthy winners of the semi, and the execution of a game plan just about came out on top in the final.
But I'd argue that the more dominant sides either do not allow it to come down to the rub of the green, or else are much more savvy at playing the percentages. It's not just the lucky winner of a series of dice rolls. The best teams load the dice. We are not loading the dice at the crucial points.
Agreed. But this season I would say that only Saints are far enough clear to be able to claim that a bit of bad luck would not have made any difference.
That's because the winning teams are usually the ones who got the bounce of the ball.
Look at our title winning season, so many times we got the rub of the green, a favourable refereeing decision, a lucky bounce.
A lot of off-field things aligned to give us a chance of a title, which the players took, brilliantly. We (the fans) got lucky that year. I'd suggest that the on-field luck simply made the difference between coming top and coming second - 14 points clear of third. Then, despite Saints' opportunities which they blew, we were worthy winners of the semi, and the execution of a game plan just about came out on top in the final.
But I'd argue that the more dominant sides either do not allow it to come down to the rub of the green, or else are much more savvy at playing the percentages. It's not just the lucky winner of a series of dice rolls. The best teams load the dice. We are not loading the dice at the crucial points.
Agreed. But this season I would say that only Saints are far enough clear to be able to claim that a bit of bad luck would not have made any difference.
Yeah this season is a real outlier in that regard, and Saints may still end up being unlucky in a final. I just don't think it gives Tigers a big enough excuse for 8th - certainly not next season anyway.
After all the vitriol posted by certain keyboard warriors towards the officials, I’ve just watched the game on tv to see what I missed live.
I can only offer two instances where they got it wrong and it materially affected the game. The first was when Cronin flew into a ruck almost from the Bristol side in the build up to OHC’s first try. The second was Genge’s knock on just before Brown’s yellow card. Some of those posting during the game did so that often that you have to question how much of the game they actually watched, even if they are in possession of teenagers thumbs!!
When Whiteley kicked, my immediate reaction was ‘What is he doing!’ But in fairness, Freddie won the contest for the ball and it was Chessum’s fumble that gave the ball to Bristol.
Really disappointed about Saturdays game, but now the dust has settled a little....
There has been a lot of focus on Whitely kicking the ball "away" with a couple of minutes to go - it was certainly my knee-jerk reaction and it felt like our chances of winning slipped away with this decision.
But, a win with 4 points was never going to be enough - we needed a bonus point to give ourselves any chance of making the play-offs (however unlikely and out of hands that may have been).
Shutting up shop was not going to get us the 4th try we needed and we were struggling in open play a man down.
With just a little more luck, the ball falls slightly differently, we get into their 22 and who knows what happens - it nearly worked and irrespective of the outcome, in the context of what we actually needed out of the game, I'm really not sure it was the wrong choice. If it had come off, Whitely comes out of this smelling of roses.
Yes, conceding the tries in such a short period of time was really, really not great, but as far as the kick goes, I think we are missing the point if we pin our woes on that.
My personal opinion etc etc...
Dokie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:21 pm
After all the vitriol posted by certain keyboard warriors towards the officials, I’ve just watched the game on tv to see what I missed live.
I can only offer two instances where they got it wrong and it materially affected the game. The first was when Cronin flew into a ruck almost from the Bristol side in the build up to OHC’s first try. The second was Genge’s knock on just before Brown’s yellow card. Some of those posting during the game did so that often that you have to question how much of the game they actually watched, even if they are in possession of teenagers thumbs!!
When Whiteley kicked, my immediate reaction was ‘What is he doing!’ But in fairness, Freddie won the contest for the ball and it was Chessum’s fumble that gave the ball to Bristol.
I often watch games for the first time a day or two after - and often find the same thing. People get caught up in the emotion watching it live I think - rather than dispassionately in the cold light of day.
Dokie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:21 pm
After all the vitriol posted by certain keyboard warriors towards the officials, I’ve just watched the game on tv to see what I missed live.
I can only offer two instances where they got it wrong and it materially affected the game. The first was when Cronin flew into a ruck almost from the Bristol side in the build up to OHC’s first try. The second was Genge’s knock on just before Brown’s yellow card. Some of those posting during the game did so that often that you have to question how much of the game they actually watched, even if they are in possession of teenagers thumbs!!
When Whiteley kicked, my immediate reaction was ‘What is he doing!’ But in fairness, Freddie won the contest for the ball and it was Chessum’s fumble that gave the ball to Bristol.
I often watch games for the first time a day or two after - and often find the same thing. People get caught up in the emotion watching it live I think - rather than dispassionately in the cold light of day.
This is very true and I am certainly guilty of this.
I still believe though that the officiating was very poor. There were certainly IMHO a lot more than two instances they got wrong. I think the worst thing is that Carley just lost control of the game very early, with lots of little things players were getting away with for the rest of the game.
With Whitley... everybody makes mistakes. He unfortunately keeps making this very mistake, and IMHO should not be trusted to finish a tight game again. IMHO it is a far better tactic to "put the ball up your jumper." This obviously needs perfectioning to not give away penalties etc, but it is far better than giving the ball back to a team known for their excellent open field play, especially with tiring bodies.
I think kicking for touch would have been the best option, as setting up the lineout would have run around 30 secs off the clock and Bristol attacking from their 22 off first phase was a much greater challenge than from open play.
2.10 is a long time to pick and go with the risk of sealing off and conceding 40m from the resulting penalty. Yes, we might have drawn a penalty from Bristol but it’s all ifs and buts at the end of the day. (Sorry. I seem to have burst into cliches!)
Dokie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:05 am
I think kicking for touch would have been the best option, as setting up the lineout would have run around 30 secs off the clock and Bristol attacking from their 22 off first phase was a much greater challenge than from open play.
2.10 is a long time to pick and go with the risk of sealing off and conceding 40m from the resulting penalty. Yes, we might have drawn a penalty from Bristol but it’s all ifs and buts at the end of the day. (Sorry. I seem to have burst into cliches!)
Didn't they score that try starting from pretty much their 22?
Dokie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:21 pm
After all the vitriol posted by certain keyboard warriors towards the officials, I’ve just watched the game on tv to see what I missed live.
I can only offer two instances where they got it wrong and it materially affected the game. The first was when Cronin flew into a ruck almost from the Bristol side in the build up to OHC’s first try. The second was Genge’s knock on just before Brown’s yellow card. Some of those posting during the game did so that often that you have to question how much of the game they actually watched, even if they are in possession of teenagers thumbs!!
When Whiteley kicked, my immediate reaction was ‘What is he doing!’ But in fairness, Freddie won the contest for the ball and it was Chessum’s fumble that gave the ball to Bristol.
I often watch games for the first time a day or two after - and often find the same thing. People get caught up in the emotion watching it live I think - rather than dispassionately in the cold light of day.
This is very true and I am certainly guilty of this.
I still believe though that the officiating was very poor. There were certainly IMHO a lot more than two instances they got wrong. I think the worst thing is that Carley just lost control of the game very early, with lots of little things players were getting away with for the rest of the game.
With Whitley... everybody makes mistakes. He unfortunately keeps making this very mistake, and IMHO should not be trusted to finish a tight game again. IMHO it is a far better tactic to "put the ball up your jumper." This obviously needs perfectioning to not give away penalties etc, but it is far better than giving the ball back to a team known for their excellent open field play, especially with tiring bodies.
But were we not trying to win and get a try BP, not close the game out?
I recall a couple of seasons ago that a certain Richard Wrigglesworth repeatedly box kicked until he eventually gave them the ability to score the last minute winning try. Not sure what goes through the heads of players at that point (I'm certainly not an elite sportsman) but it looks to as something that could be coached out or even practiced for. Disappointing but not unusual and I think failing to qualify for the playoffs is a fair reflection on how we're performing.
I'm looking forward to the end of season stats so we can see what the other teams are doing so much better in kicks, offloads, ruck speed etc
Dokie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:05 am
I think kicking for touch would have been the best option, as setting up the lineout would have run around 30 secs off the clock and Bristol attacking from their 22 off first phase was a much greater challenge than from open play.
2.10 is a long time to pick and go with the risk of sealing off and conceding 40m from the resulting penalty. Yes, we might have drawn a penalty from Bristol but it’s all ifs and buts at the end of the day. (Sorry. I seem to have burst into cliches!)
Didn't they score that try starting from pretty much their 22?
Yes they did - from open play. And that’s the key - set piece defence at that point would have been many times better than open play fragmented defence
ourla wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:05 pm
I often watch games for the first time a day or two after - and often find the same thing. People get caught up in the emotion watching it live I think - rather than dispassionately in the cold light of day.
This is very true and I am certainly guilty of this.
I still believe though that the officiating was very poor. There were certainly IMHO a lot more than two instances they got wrong. I think the worst thing is that Carley just lost control of the game very early, with lots of little things players were getting away with for the rest of the game.
With Whitley... everybody makes mistakes. He unfortunately keeps making this very mistake, and IMHO should not be trusted to finish a tight game again. IMHO it is a far better tactic to "put the ball up your jumper." This obviously needs perfectioning to not give away penalties etc, but it is far better than giving the ball back to a team known for their excellent open field play, especially with tiring bodies.
But were we not trying to win and get a try BP, not close the game out?
That is, of course true... But at that point, I would have just been happy with a win. I think a lot of us saw a loss coming, if we weren't careful.. and we were careless.Ball retention in both circumstances is key.
Last edited by Pellsey on Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
