AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:32 pm
On the subject of Freddie, we can't have it both ways. We can't moan about the attack being dull or not good enough, and then then moan about the solution to that problem is by bringing in Shillcock.
Currently with Freddie at FB, we are probably defensively stronger, yet probably weaker in attack. Due to injuries we have had to move Freddie to the wing and bring in Shillcock. That has also meant we look better in attack, if marginally weaker in defence. Like others have said here and in other threads, the best attacking performance has been Quins and Leinster with Shillcock at 15 in the dual distribution role.
For me, we have a choice. We either go defensively stronger with Freddie at 15, and accept the attack may be weaker. Or we temporarily move Freddie to the wing and play Shillcock at 15, until the new attack coach arrives. I personally would choose the second one for now.
But we can't have it both ways, where we constantly moan about the state of the attack but then moan about the solution to the problem. (this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but as a forum in general)
+1, we currently have conceded less points than other teams (according to commentators) if we can now start to get more forward momentum that'll be great
And he’s only 23!! Whilst he may always lack the pace of some, I’m sure he can and will still work on and improve the attacking side of his game. Maybe part of the ‘issue’ is that he plays the way he is asked to play. And he does that very well.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:36 am
Wasn't the criticism of Steward a few months ago that he missed too many one on one tackles?
Once Leinster have broken your defensive line and have 5 players running at speed against your last defender, it really doesn't make any difference who your full back is.
...and that's the key. Stop them dead on the gain line so they can't get arms free to off-load to those flooding through. It's the speed of ball that kills most teams that play Leinster. There is literally not enough time to get off the floor and back into a defensive position to stop the next wave of attack.
I thought we made a really good effort to do this on Saturday, and did better at disrupting the breakdown than I expected without Reffell. Unfortunately it wasn't quite enough, and wasnt done in the right way for the ref, which meant 3/4 attacking opportunities for Leinster of which all were scored.
AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:32 pm
On the subject of Freddie, we can't have it both ways. We can't moan about the attack being dull or not good enough, and then then moan about the solution to that problem is by bringing in Shillcock.
Currently with Freddie at FB, we are probably defensively stronger, yet probably weaker in attack. Due to injuries we have had to move Freddie to the wing and bring in Shillcock. That has also meant we look better in attack, if marginally weaker in defence. Like others have said here and in other threads, the best attacking performance has been Quins and Leinster with Shillcock at 15 in the dual distribution role.
For me, we have a choice. We either go defensively stronger with Freddie at 15, and accept the attack may be weaker. Or we temporarily move Freddie to the wing and play Shillcock at 15, until the new attack coach arrives. I personally would choose the second one for now.
But we can't have it both ways, where we constantly moan about the state of the attack but then moan about the solution to the problem. (this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but as a forum in general)
I would agree with you about the rest of this season max of 6 games to go. It is more after that and the effect it may have on Steward long term. New attack coach fresh ideas and a couple of centres who can do more than just truck it up and who knows.
Get your best players on the pitch in their best positions, but sometimes there has to be some colouring outside the lines
why do you assume Freddie is at all upset by this? he may well be fully in favour and see it as his best route back into the England XV/23.
I suspect modern players, especially backs don't see their whole Rugby identity tied to a single shirt
AViewFromLe2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:32 pm
On the subject of Freddie, we can't have it both ways. We can't moan about the attack being dull or not good enough, and then then moan about the solution to that problem is by bringing in Shillcock.
Currently with Freddie at FB, we are probably defensively stronger, yet probably weaker in attack. Due to injuries we have had to move Freddie to the wing and bring in Shillcock. That has also meant we look better in attack, if marginally weaker in defence. Like others have said here and in other threads, the best attacking performance has been Quins and Leinster with Shillcock at 15 in the dual distribution role.
For me, we have a choice. We either go defensively stronger with Freddie at 15, and accept the attack may be weaker. Or we temporarily move Freddie to the wing and play Shillcock at 15, until the new attack coach arrives. I personally would choose the second one for now.
But we can't have it both ways, where we constantly moan about the state of the attack but then moan about the solution to the problem. (this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but as a forum in general)
I would agree with you about the rest of this season max of 6 games to go. It is more after that and the effect it may have on Steward long term. New attack coach fresh ideas and a couple of centres who can do more than just truck it up and who knows.
Get your best players on the pitch in their best positions, but sometimes there has to be some colouring outside the lines
why do you assume Freddie is at all upset by this? he may well be fully in favour and see it as his best route back into the England XV/23.
I suspect modern players, especially backs don't see their whole Rugby identity tied to a single shirt
I think it’s a reasonable assumption that a player who in his last game for England, v Wales, was the best back, has lost his place in the national set up, and in his club side isn’t being picked in his favoured position, would be less than chuffed about the situation. Even if he isn’t I would still hope that the club are looking after him.
I’m afraid it is complete tosh about the modern player being happy in more than one position. There are numerous legends of the game that only ever played with one number on their back, and it’s better to be a master of one trade rather than a master of none .
Would also point out that we’re talking about a change to wing where he has played for England on a number of occasions
If we need a second playmaker and want Shillcock in the side, why not try him at 12, with Freddie at 15? Shillcock is a more jinky runner and it would let Kata go on the wing, Kelly at 13.?
LE18 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 3:50 pm
If we need a second playmaker and want Shillcock in the side, why not try him at 12, with Freddie at 15? Shillcock is a more jinky runner and it would let Kata go on the wing, Kelly at 13.?
the club need to look after Shilcock he's a 15 after all yet we keep asking him to play out of position at 10...
on a serious note though I'm not sure he has the size to play there, also don't think he has but someone else may have the stats
Personally I think that we should line up with Steward on the wing in attack and Shillcock at 15. I think that actually suits both of them. Steward has consistently made his tries and meters (apart from kick returns) out wide.
In defence you can swap them around. I think Shillcock is more than capable of defending on the wing or fullback.
It gets 2 of our best players on the pitch and I think it helps them both tbh...
Unless Watson is fit I think Steward is both our best 14 as well as our best 15. OHC & Bassett both are 11's more than 14's
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
I would agree with you about the rest of this season max of 6 games to go. It is more after that and the effect it may have on Steward long term. New attack coach fresh ideas and a couple of centres who can do more than just truck it up and who knows.
Get your best players on the pitch in their best positions, but sometimes there has to be some colouring outside the lines
why do you assume Freddie is at all upset by this? he may well be fully in favour and see it as his best route back into the England XV/23.
I suspect modern players, especially backs don't see their whole Rugby identity tied to a single shirt
I think it’s a reasonable assumption that a player who in his last game for England, v Wales, was the best back, has lost his place in the national set up, and in his club side isn’t being picked in his favoured position, would be less than chuffed about the situation. Even if he isn’t I would still hope that the club are looking after him.
I’m afraid it is complete tosh about the modern player being happy in more than one position. There are numerous legends of the game that only ever played with one number on their back, and it’s better to be a master of one trade rather than a master of none .
Would also point out that we’re talking about a change to wing where he has played for England on a number of occasions
I agree with you Rugbygramps - he’s a great young man and a committed and very effective player and we need to look after him.
TigerFeetSteve wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:25 pm
Personally I think that we should line up with Steward on the wing in attack and Shillcock at 15. I think that actually suits both of them. Steward has consistently made his tries and meters (apart from kick returns) out wide.
In defence you can swap them around. I think Shillcock is more than capable of defending on the wing or fullback.
It gets 2 of our best players on the pitch and I think it helps them both tbh...
Unless Watson is fit I think Steward is both our best 14 as well as our best 15. OHC & Bassett both are 11's more than 14's
I believe Bassett, OHC and Simmons are all left footers so more suited to that side of the pitch, with Brown and Shilcock too we must have the most left footed kicking options in the league.
something we should make more use of especially when trying to exit our own 22
I would agree with you about the rest of this season max of 6 games to go. It is more after that and the effect it may have on Steward long term. New attack coach fresh ideas and a couple of centres who can do more than just truck it up and who knows.
Get your best players on the pitch in their best positions, but sometimes there has to be some colouring outside the lines
why do you assume Freddie is at all upset by this? he may well be fully in favour and see it as his best route back into the England XV/23.
I suspect modern players, especially backs don't see their whole Rugby identity tied to a single shirt
I think it’s a reasonable assumption that a player who in his last game for England, v Wales, was the best back, has lost his place in the national set up, and in his club side isn’t being picked in his favoured position, would be less than chuffed about the situation. Even if he isn’t I would still hope that the club are looking after him. I’m afraid it is complete tosh about the modern player being happy in more than one position. There are numerous legends of the game that only ever played with one number on their back, and it’s better to be a master of one trade rather than a master of none . Would also point out that we’re talking about a change to wing where he has played for England on a number of occasions
Most of the legends of the games have played multiple positions, especially outside backs I feel.
It's the nature of rugby, injuries etc.
Shilcock is a flyhalf/fullback, in fact I think Worcester played him more at 10 than at 15. In France it is quite common for 9's and 10's to be interchangeable. There are many instances of wings playing 15 and fly halfs playing 15 but that does not mean that all.players can switch. Austin Healy was international standard in any backs position, Will Greenwood and Pat Howard were both 12's and both were less effective at 13. It is not always possible to coach even a talented player in one position to perform to the same standard in another. Many front row forwards can only play one position yet some, Perry Freshwater for instance played all three to a high standard.
johnthegriff wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:00 pm
Shilcock is a flyhalf/fullback, in fact I think Worcester played him more at 10 than at 15. In France it is quite common for 9's and 10's to be interchangeable. There are many instances of wings playing 15 and fly halfs playing 15 but that does not mean that all.players can switch. Austin Healy was international standard in any backs position, Will Greenwood and Pat Howard were both 12's and both were less effective at 13. It is not always possible to coach even a talented player in one position to perform to the same standard in another. Many front row forwards can only play one position yet some, Perry Freshwater for instance played all three to a high standard.
Not accurate although he started out more as 10 with them in the later seasons he was exclusively a 15 and has more starts for them at 15
Pat Howard was also a international fly half
Honestly I do feel Steward could gain some carrying confidence from playing on the wing especially in terms of backing himself. Martin played 8 to get him confidence in his carrying for a similar reason
I certainly don't believe Steward misses pace, just accelaration. He is a huge guy with long legs in the Croft mould.
If it is a pure leg race, he will do quite well. The problem is only if there is a small agile scrum half / winger with space, they will have the upper hand.
If you have an agile fullback, then they will catch the little agile ones, but I would back Steward defending against any larger, less agile winger or No. 8 for that matter. As has been said, it is better to close up the gaps in the first place. Often our defence fails between the 10 and 12, so we just need to work on this.
With the kick-tennis strategy, Steward is certainly the obvious option. I think though this is being deployed less often now, so he will have to add to his game. I'm certainly not a fan of the 15 as a play maker - these are for me typically 9s, 10s, and 12s. 15s are receivers like wingers IMHO, and Steward has proven his worth many times in that regard.
Not to take anything away from Shillcock. I think he is a useful player in the back three.
