Leinster mind games begin? - Champions Cup (A) - Saturday 06th April 2024 - KO:8:00pm

[Rugbygramps]

Certainly not against Steward on the wing and his ability to drop back would give Shilcock more licence to roam. All this would be easier with an attack coach of course

[Leicestertinytiger]

For me this kind of reminded me of Scotland England in the six nations. Things didn’t click but there were definitely positives.

The pack did pretty good all things considered. Cronin probably had his best game yet and showed what he can do. Liebenberg back to his best. Cracknell playing in his best position played really well. He’s more of Haskell style 7 than poacher. Hope he’s here next season.

[sam16111986]

Shilcock is a flyhalf/fullback, in fact I think Worcester played him more at 10 than at 15. In France it is quite common for 9's and 10's to be interchangeable. There are many instances of wings playing 15 and fly halfs playing 15 but that does not mean that all.players can switch. Austin Healy was international standard in any backs position, Will Greenwood and Pat Howard were both 12's and both were less effective at 13. It is not always possible to coach even a talented player in one position to perform to the same standard in another. Many front row forwards can only play one position yet some, Perry Freshwater for instance played all three to a high standard.

Not accurate although he started out more as 10 with them in the later seasons he was exclusively a 15 and has more starts for them at 15
Pat Howard was also a international fly half

Honestly I do feel Steward could gain some carrying confidence from playing on the wing especially in terms of backing himself. Martin played 8 to get him confidence in his carrying for a similar reason

Ideally we'd get Steward stepping down to Loughborough University to play flyhalf for a couple of games to build up his playmaking confidence. Not sure that's really feasible though.

Steward has all the right raw material but with blitz defences becoming as aggressive as they are then getting round the corner and counter attacking off of loose kicks is key. Passing range/offloads and developing a greater range of kicking should be key for him. Steward has a huge boot but could do with more variation to test the opposition back field. If we could get Geordie Murphy in to help mentor him in these areas that would be ideal as he was a master of reading the game from 15.

[Rugbygramps]

Hmmmm not so sure about Murphy, great player distinctly average coach.
The issues with players like him, and Back, they were such mavericks in the way they played, naturally gifted, is a lot of it can’t be coached, it was instinct.

I understand that you can always learn but I’m unsure why people feel he needs specialist coaching all of a sudden. He was doing pretty well until Borthwick decided he wasn’t after a decent performance against the Welsh

[Jimmy Skitz]

because he's still a young player who yes is world class under the high ball, however has yet to show he's international class in many other aspects that we need from 15, people think he can but needs someone to help bring it out in him, teams already negate his biggest asset.

People want him to add more strings to his bow to make him an even better player, some people seem to be insulted on his behalf for some weird reason

[Rugbygramps]

because he's still a young player who yes is world class under the high ball, however has yet to show he's international class in many other aspects that we need from 15, people think he can but needs someone to help bring it out in him, teams already negate his biggest asset.

People want him to add more strings to his bow to make him an even better player, some people seem to be insulted on his behalf for some weird reason

Not insulted and just asking the question, coaching is an ongoing thing.
I would be interested to know which areas of his game aren’t international class, given some of the tries he’s scored, some of the assists he made, and some of his last ditch tackles.
Please let’s not go down the lack of acceleration route again unless you know a way to defy the laws of physics.

Some people seem to be offended because their master plan of him becoming a 12 is questioned

[Jimmy Skitz]

I don't want him at 12, I don't want him at any specific position I want the most impactful 15 on the field, his playmaking clearly needs work for a modern 15, tactical kicking, more than just the kick tennis version, probably needs work, we know he has a massive boot so maybe taking some longer distance penalty kicks, the was Daly does for England, would also be of benefit to him.

The more weapons he can provide the better

[GB72]

I don't want him at 12, I don't want him at any specific position I want the most impactful 15 on the field, his playmaking clearly needs work for a modern 15, tactical kicking, more than just the kick tennis version, probably needs work, we know he has a massive boot so maybe taking some longer distance penalty kicks, the was Daly does for England, would also be of benefit to him.

The more weapons he can provide the better

Exactly this. England, and possibly even Tigers, want that multi faceted player at full back and I would love to see Steward develop his game to fill that roll for both teams. The problem is, a player who plays exclusively one position in the backs (outside of 9 & 10) is not likely to get a bench spot either due to a lack of versatility but even some time on the wing to develop into a viable 2 position player could help his selection for both club and country.

There is no doubt he is one of the very best at what he does but the question is now whether what he does is enough or what some coaches are looking for.

[Rugbygramps]

I totally agree about his kicking, though for Tigers with Pollard kicking 50 metres plus possibly isn’t needed. You can see with Lowe for both Ireland and Leinster the impact of a big accurate boot.
Rugby like all sports is cyclical, and if both England and Tigers had a Pat Howard or a Will Greenwood at 12, with the ability to bring a strong running 15 into the line in multiple places, this debate would be a lot shorter.

All imo of course

[Rugbygramps]

I don't want him at 12, I don't want him at any specific position I want the most impactful 15 on the field, his playmaking clearly needs work for a modern 15, tactical kicking, more than just the kick tennis version, probably needs work, we know he has a massive boot so maybe taking some longer distance penalty kicks, the was Daly does for England, would also be of benefit to him.

The more weapons he can provide the better

Exactly this. England, and possibly even Tigers, want that multi faceted player at full back and I would love to see Steward develop his game to fill that roll for both teams. The problem is, a player who plays exclusively one position in the backs (outside of 9 & 10) is not likely to get a bench spot either due to a lack of versatility but even some time on the wing to develop into a viable 2 position player could help his selection for both club and country.

There is no doubt he is one of the very best at what he does but the question is now whether what he does is enough or what some coaches are looking for.

Steward on the bench covers 20% of the positions. Not saying it’s ideal but if Feya Waboso can be on the bench so can Steward

[GB72]

I don't want him at 12, I don't want him at any specific position I want the most impactful 15 on the field, his playmaking clearly needs work for a modern 15, tactical kicking, more than just the kick tennis version, probably needs work, we know he has a massive boot so maybe taking some longer distance penalty kicks, the was Daly does for England, would also be of benefit to him.

The more weapons he can provide the better

Exactly this. England, and possibly even Tigers, want that multi faceted player at full back and I would love to see Steward develop his game to fill that roll for both teams. The problem is, a player who plays exclusively one position in the backs (outside of 9 & 10) is not likely to get a bench spot either due to a lack of versatility but even some time on the wing to develop into a viable 2 position player could help his selection for both club and country.

There is no doubt he is one of the very best at what he does but the question is now whether what he does is enough or what some coaches are looking for.

Steward on the bench covers 20% of the positions. Not saying it’s ideal but if Feya Waboso can be on the bench so can Steward

Depends what other cover you have on the bench and on the pitch. If Ford is starting, I suspect that Marcus Smith would be used as bench fullback cover and so no spot for Steward.

All seems somewhat of a moot point in any event. It is fact that he was not selected in the match day squad for the second half of the 6 nations and (unless is was due to injuries) was selected on the wing as opposed to full back in an important Tigers match.

[Jimmy Skitz]

Exactly this. England, and possibly even Tigers, want that multi faceted player at full back and I would love to see Steward develop his game to fill that roll for both teams. The problem is, a player who plays exclusively one position in the backs (outside of 9 & 10) is not likely to get a bench spot either due to a lack of versatility but even some time on the wing to develop into a viable 2 position player could help his selection for both club and country.

There is no doubt he is one of the very best at what he does but the question is now whether what he does is enough or what some coaches are looking for.

Steward on the bench covers 20% of the positions. Not saying it’s ideal but if Feya Waboso can be on the bench so can Steward

Depends what other cover you have on the bench and on the pitch. If Ford is starting, I suspect that Marcus Smith would be used as bench fullback cover and so no spot for Steward.

All seems somewhat of a moot point in any event. It is fact that he was not selected in the match day squad for the second half of the 6 nations and (unless is was due to injuries) was selected on the wing as opposed to full back in an important Tigers match.

on the Tigers selection, we had no other wingers available, if Bassett, Simmonds or Watson were available it would be a fair point to make

[mol2]

Am I alone in thinking it strange that Freddie was dropped after his best attacking/counter attacking game in an England jersey?

He was, by some margin, England's brightest spark against Wales. Should have made or scored a couple of tries but for tripping over his own feet having done the hard work!

The issue seems to be that Borthwick reverted to Ford at fly half when Marcus Smith got injured. Ford is not the attacking player he was. He hasn't had the pace since his achilles rupture a couple of years ago and came into the 6N undercooked with a knee injury. In the first game against Italy he (Borthwick) wasted the opportunity to start with Finn Smith and starting him against Wales couldn't then happen.

I really rate George Ford but he isn't the player he was. I might get shot down in flames for suggesting that the midfield issues England had when playing him alongside Farrell (at centre) were partly down to him falling just short of top international level. Further compounded by playing Farrell at inside centre which he simply isn't at that level. During that era both Jones and then Borthwick should have chosen Ford or Farrell, but not both. For me that time has passed and England are again looking to compensate for a steady fly half by using their full back as the primary playmaker.

Marcus Smith is not a bench full back option. He covers fly half or starts at fly half.

[Jimmy Skitz]

Am I alone in thinking it strange that Freddie was dropped after his best attacking/counter attacking game in an England jersey?

He was, by some margin, England's brightest spark against Wales. Should have made or scored a couple of tries but for tripping over his own feet having done the hard work!

The issue seems to be that Borthwick reverted to Ford at fly half when Marcus Smith got injured. Ford is not the attacking player he was. He hasn't had the pace since his achilles rupture a couple of years ago and came into the 6N undercooked with a knee injury. In the first game against Italy he (Borthwick) wasted the opportunity to start with Finn Smith and starting him against Wales couldn't then happen.

I really rate George Ford but he isn't the player he was. I might get shot down in flames for suggesting that the midfield issues England had when playing him alongside Farrell (at centre) were partly down to him falling just short of top international level. Further compounded by playing Farrell at inside centre which he simply isn't at that level. During that era both Jones and then Borthwick should have chosen Ford or Farrell, but not both. For me that time has passed and England are again looking to compensate for a steady fly half by using their full back as the primary playmaker.

Marcus Smith is not a bench full back option. He covers fly half or starts at fly half.

Smith quite literally was England's bench Full back option, unless you think Manu was covering it?

[GB72]

Steward on the bench covers 20% of the positions. Not saying it’s ideal but if Feya Waboso can be on the bench so can Steward

Depends what other cover you have on the bench and on the pitch. If Ford is starting, I suspect that Marcus Smith would be used as bench fullback cover and so no spot for Steward.

All seems somewhat of a moot point in any event. It is fact that he was not selected in the match day squad for the second half of the 6 nations and (unless is was due to injuries) was selected on the wing as opposed to full back in an important Tigers match.

on the Tigers selection, we had no other wingers available, if Bassett, Simmonds or Watson were available it would be a fair point to make

Was not sure on the position regarding Bassett and with the debate about Pollard playing better with a second playmaker on the pitch I wondered if the decision could be have been tactical as opposed to forced.

Bearing in mind injuries etc, will be interesting to see the selection verses Saints