LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Stephen18]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

Your right tigers do lack pace, and have done since Johnny may, but we also seem to lack the creativity to use pace, so it would just be wasted if we had it.
Looking at the games today and yesterday those most teams seem so comfortable with ball in hand and offloading, and that not down to missing an attacking coach for 1season these are core skills that you’d assume pretty much all professional rugby players should have.

[Tiglon]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

Your right tigers do lack pace, and have done since Johnny may, but we also seem to lack the creativity to use pace, so it would just be wasted if we had it.
Looking at the games today and yesterday those most teams seem so comfortable with ball in hand and offloading, and that not down to missing an attacking coach for 1season these are core skills that you’d assume pretty much all professional rugby players should have.

It's lack of clarity, not skills. The Saints players know exactly what they're supposed to do in almost every situation, which leads to quick decisions and accuracy. We repeatedly look unsure of what to do, which leads to hesitation and mistakes.

Why is this? The two easiest answers are:

1) Saints have had Vesty telling them what to do for years, so they know exactly what he wants and it's almost second nature. There's a really good article with quotes from Freeman illustrating the thought processes they go through in attack. Contrastingly, our players have had about a million different coaches over the last few years, no doubt all telling them different things.

2) Saints have better coaches than us.

It might be either answer, it might be a bit of both, it might be neither. However, consistency and clarity of message from coaches is critical and we have not had that recently. If that is the issue, you would expect significant improvements after a few more matches and a good pre-season...

[Scuttle]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

I agree with this, with the caveat that Chessum has really improved his carrying through contact. He had some monster carries yesterday. He can't do it on his own though, Martin being fit is the obvious other option and Henderson was looking very good until he got injured, so all is not lost, assuming we can get those 3 on the field at the same time. Martin's injury woes are a big concern for someone of his age.

I don't necessarily agree with OHC. It seems he was "in the seat" yesterday, getting heat from all angles, including Healey, who should keep his individual criticism to himself, not air it on live TV - in my opinion. The comment about OHC's chase when we hoofed in down field, not being full speed was inaccurate, to me he was sprinting, but people have picked up on it, as well as a ruck that he apparently could have hit. Looking at it again, I'm not entirely sure that if he had hit that ruck he'd have stopped any momentum. It's very picky. OHC in my view is a victim of our stuttering attack - lack of attack coach - it strikes me he's a player that needs an arm around him and be told how good he is. He did some good things yesterday though, but throughout the season, too often I'm left thinking "how many times did he touch or even get the ball ?". It seems we're incapable of getting him in space, something that Saints wingers have the luxury of getting on a regular basis. If your 10/12 can manipulate a defence and create space, it's an easy game. With Pollard/Kata that's not our game.

In summary, put OHC in a team with Russell, Fin/Marcus Smith or Ford and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Watson....it just hasn't worked sadly. He had that X Factor.....had.

You raise an important point when judging how much effort is being put in by the likes of OHC. The running gait of a sprinter should not be the criteria of how much effort they put in. Tall, longer-legged sprinters like OHC will not have the leg speed of shorter-legged sprinters. Back in my day there were 2 obvious contrasts...Steve Riddick (USA) and Valeriy Borzov (USSR/Ukraine).....the former tall and lithe, the latter short and stocky. Just because someone looks like they are not running at full tilt/trying hard doesn't mean they aren't.

[westwinds31]

….and for Healey to question if he’s going fast enough is just inaccurate and frankly, wrong. I see on social media everyone is now questioning OHC - funny that - well done Austin.

[RunTigerRun]

….and for Healey to question if he’s going fast enough is just inaccurate and frankly, wrong. I see on social media everyone is now questioning OHC - funny that - well done Austin.

Agreed. Commentary is one thing, but to call out a player when not knowing the full story or the facts and effectively leading a man hunt is poor form.

All this Be Kind stuff really didn’t last long…

[milesanderson]

What is wrong with the Board ? They bring in an Aussie coach who has proved himself to be completely devoid of any talent whatsoever. The reason the Boks have been so successful is that Erasmus put in place a system that allowed players to use their own intelligence and didn’t dictate rigid ‘plays’ to them. Why on earth an Aussie coach is employed God alone knows. The best team in the league has Phil Dowson and he’s English so let’s employ some local talent. Maybe Austin Healey who knows more about the game than anyone?

[Tiglon]

What is wrong with the Board ? They bring in an Aussie coach who has proved himself to be completely devoid of any talent whatsoever. The reason the Boks have been so successful is that Erasmus put in place a system that allowed players to use their own intelligence and didn’t dictate rigid ‘plays’ to them. Why on earth an Aussie coach is employed God alone knows. The best team in the league has Phil Dowson and he’s English so let’s employ some local talent. Maybe Austin Healey who knows more about the game than anyone?

Safrica are successful because they have no rigid plays.

Aussies are rubbish.

Dowson is English therefore all English coaches are great and we must employ one.

We should employ a pundit with no coaching experience as our Head Coach.

Did I get that all right? If so, are you OK?

[sam16111986]

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

Saints had already had discussions with Biggar and he'd said he wasn't staying beyond the end of that season. The rumours were they'd already done a deal for Fin Smith to come in before Worcester went bust and then just brought him in earlier when they did. Toulon had an injury crisis and Biggar requested to go early and Saints said yes as it was a significant cost saving.

Were Pollard to indicate he isn't going to be signing a new deal we'd probably start looking around as there's very few flyhalfs of suitable levels to come in and replicate his level of performance. He is unfairly maligned because he doesn't do flashy things in my opinion. I think there's another 10% or so to come from him but he's not playing badly.

I'm not aware of a standout young EQ 10 we could go after currently. Louie Johnson has agreed to go to Sarries. Smith isn't leaving Saints. Orlando Bailey has a contract to 2026 with Bath. We'd probably have to look abroad again and I'd rather give Wilkinson a shot as I think he's got more than he's been allowed to show so far.

Yeah I get that saints had already agree for smith the next season I’m not say we should have got him but they had the faith in n him to let Biggar go early and let him take the team, we haven’t allowed any young player to do that. Especially Wilkinson he 24 now and agin we’ve played Shilcock over him when ever we’ve had the chance. So if they think he’s good enough who where we looking at when we released Atkinson, did we look at the Newcastle lad and missed out where we looking any of the unsigned u18 and 20’s that bath and sale have signed, I just don’t see at the minute how our recruitment is planing for the future and that predates Dan mcKeller.
Realistic do we want to sign pollard on again, he a large chunk of money taking our marquee player slot but not playing like it, when you could sign Montoya up to that to make sure we retain him with talk of the pumas rejoining super rugby. And pollard not going to talk a pay cut to stay I’d imagine so you’d have thought he’d be leaving for Japan or South Africa.

Don't think there was much point in making Biggar stay was there. He was leaving at the end of the season and was both very expensive and very fragile. Fin Smith whilst young had well over 30 appearances for Wuss with about 25 in the Prem. He was a known quantity.

Montoya is a fantastic player but hookers are generally the lowest paid position in rugby. Whilst not cheap he's unlikely to be in the big leagues of pay outs that marquees are getting. Going home to Argentina is unlikely to be a financially motivated decision either.

Louie Johnson will be behind an uncapped Kiwi who's coming back from a nasty injury at Sarries. He might well end up having the keys to the team in short order. At a club where the coaching set up is stable. Why would he come and sit behind Pollard and probably not make the bench because Shillcock is more versatile and is likely to wear 22. It's not to say we didn't investigate a move but Sarries is a more logical switch with both Farrell and Manu Vunipola heading out the door.

We've signed some of the young talent that was available and given the Midlands Academy is being ceased by the RFU are likely to be picking up some more.

Umming and arring over Pollard is all well and good but he's under contract for next season so we've got him for at least that long. Who becomes available next summer that's preferable?

[sam16111986]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

Your right tigers do lack pace, and have done since Johnny may, but we also seem to lack the creativity to use pace, so it would just be wasted if we had it.
Looking at the games today and yesterday those most teams seem so comfortable with ball in hand and offloading, and that not down to missing an attacking coach for 1season these are core skills that you’d assume pretty much all professional rugby players should have.

It's lack of clarity, not skills. The Saints players know exactly what they're supposed to do in almost every situation, which leads to quick decisions and accuracy. We repeatedly look unsure of what to do, which leads to hesitation and mistakes.

Why is this? The two easiest answers are:

1) Saints have had Vesty telling them what to do for years, so they know exactly what he wants and it's almost second nature. There's a really good article with quotes from Freeman illustrating the thought processes they go through in attack. Contrastingly, our players have had about a million different coaches over the last few years, no doubt all telling them different things.

2) Saints have better coaches than us.

It might be either answer, it might be a bit of both, it might be neither. However, consistency and clarity of message from coaches is critical and we have not had that recently. If that is the issue, you would expect significant improvements after a few more matches and a good pre-season...

3) the Saints backline has largely been together for a number of years with those that have come through the academy conditioned into the way they play. Looking seemless in attack is a lot easier when you know the players around you, the decisions they'll make and the lines they'll run.

[Tiglon]

Your right tigers do lack pace, and have done since Johnny may, but we also seem to lack the creativity to use pace, so it would just be wasted if we had it.
Looking at the games today and yesterday those most teams seem so comfortable with ball in hand and offloading, and that not down to missing an attacking coach for 1season these are core skills that you’d assume pretty much all professional rugby players should have.

It's lack of clarity, not skills. The Saints players know exactly what they're supposed to do in almost every situation, which leads to quick decisions and accuracy. We repeatedly look unsure of what to do, which leads to hesitation and mistakes.

Why is this? The two easiest answers are:

1) Saints have had Vesty telling them what to do for years, so they know exactly what he wants and it's almost second nature. There's a really good article with quotes from Freeman illustrating the thought processes they go through in attack. Contrastingly, our players have had about a million different coaches over the last few years, no doubt all telling them different things.

2) Saints have better coaches than us.

It might be either answer, it might be a bit of both, it might be neither. However, consistency and clarity of message from coaches is critical and we have not had that recently. If that is the issue, you would expect significant improvements after a few more matches and a good pre-season...

3) the Saints backline has largely been together for a number of years with those that have come through the academy conditioned into the way they play. Looking seemless in attack is a lot easier when you know the players around you, the decisions they'll make and the lines they'll run.

Good point.

Consistency of playing squad.
Consistency of coaching/coaches.

Not rocket science, but not easy to achieve.

[Pellsey]

….and for Healey to question if he’s going fast enough is just inaccurate and frankly, wrong. I see on social media everyone is now questioning OHC - funny that - well done Austin.

To be fair, it didn't need (Mr Healy) to realise that he is not playing as well or running as quickly as he did previously. He is just not backing himself. Last week, he was outpaced by a fly-half, something an international winger should never be. To me it looks more like a confidence thing or maybe he is just not happy, neither of which is helped by putting him down. The general opinion though is IMHO correct, as harsh as it may be.

[OakhamTiger32]

….and for Healey to question if he’s going fast enough is just inaccurate and frankly, wrong. I see on social media everyone is now questioning OHC - funny that - well done Austin.

To be fair, it didn't need (Mr Healy) to realise that he is not playing as well or running as quickly as he did previously. He is just not backing himself. Last week, he was outpaced by a fly-half, something an international winger should never be. To me it looks more like a confidence thing or maybe he is just not happy, neither of which is helped by putting him down. The general opinion though is IMHO correct, as harsh as it may be.

It’s last years 6N to be fair but:

FASTEST SIX NATIONS PLAYERS:
BRONZE MEDAL: OLLIE HASSELL-COLLINS (ENGLAND) — 11.9 (100m)

Personally I would like to see more of his pace. Injuries set you back there’s no question but when he was at Irish I think their style of play suited him far more. Standing around getting cold on the wing while we maul and keep it tight I the forwards doesn’t really give him the chance to display his skillset. Then when he does get the ball it all seems a bit forced. I would like to see him given the chance to show what he can do. He is rapid. You can’t expect him to be hitting top speed if he rarely touches the ball then gets sent on a length of the field footrace.. that’s exactly how the hamstring goes. I like him, I don’t think he is lazy I just think we don’t use him properly or give him the ball enough

https://www.ruck.co.uk/if-you-entered-e ... would-win/

[DeadlyDunc]

….and for Healey to question if he’s going fast enough is just inaccurate and frankly, wrong. I see on social media everyone is now questioning OHC - funny that - well done Austin.

To be fair, it didn't need (Mr Healy) to realise that he is not playing as well or running as quickly as he did previously. He is just not backing himself. Last week, he was outpaced by a fly-half, something an international winger should never be. To me it looks more like a confidence thing or maybe he is just not happy, neither of which is helped by putting him down. The general opinion though is IMHO correct, as harsh as it may be.

It’s last years 6N to be fair but:

FASTEST SIX NATIONS PLAYERS:
BRONZE MEDAL: OLLIE HASSELL-COLLINS (ENGLAND) — 11.9 (100m)

Personally I would like to see more of his pace. Injuries set you back there’s no question but when he was at Irish I think their style of play suited him far more. Standing around getting cold on the wing while we maul and keep it tight I the forwards doesn’t really give him the chance to display his skillset. Then when he does get the ball it all seems a bit forced. I would like to see him given the chance to show what he can do. He is rapid. You can’t expect him to be hitting top speed if he rarely touches the ball then gets sent on a length of the field footrace.. that’s exactly how the hamstring goes. I like him, I don’t think he is lazy I just think we don’t use him properly or give him the ball enough

https://www.ruck.co.uk/if-you-entered-e ... would-win/

I agree with all this - its a body language thing for me, he just doesn't look at the races but accept that is probably, in large part, frustration at not being given the right situations in which to showcase his talents and pace.

The problem with this is that you can still put out there the impression of chasing everything at 100% and going looking for work and putting your head in - as many players out of form say, its almost a case of sometimes doing all the ugly stuff at full tilt that brings some luck and opportunities that you want.

I have some sympathy with him if i am honest but Potter was a good example of chasing everything, going at everything hard, getting up in the air on box kicks and generally being a nuisance out of possession. That can lead to turnovers, opportunities that then give you space and chances.

[PeteK]

My view is and im probably wrong... that the only piece of the puzzle letting this side down is the club and the coaching team, Grewcock i dont think is a good enough S+C coach, we have had no attack / backs coach, sorry Matt smith should be no where near the 1st team and as for DM he doesnt know the prem or the players and he needs too. SB came in made changes and played players in dif combos to see what he had and learn the players, DM has not had that chance... give it.
Id sign Polly for another 3 as i feel he does suit Leicesters DNA but the coaches need to coach it.

We all go on about change this player etc lets look at the options of whos tying these players together, as SB said sometimes you need a Freddie Burns in the squad not because hes the best on the park but its what he brings behind the scenes and that can make a team, i think we have missed that, but like i said thats my view.

[TigerFeetSteve]

I think if the club have any more signings ready they really could do with rolling them out soon.

Most especially an attack coach announcement for next year...

The club needs to get ahead of some of the negativity and give the fans a shot in the arm and a boost.