LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[LE18]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

Nasty 6/lock type, I know one, try George Martin, perfect fit.

[AViewFromLe2]

I do think when it comes to signings there’s an underlying level of frustration and people are losing patience of another year of not competing at the top level. I accept some of this is outside the club’s control - but if you look at the last 4 years.

20/21 season - transition year because of Covid-19 / Borthwick first season.

21/22 season - we won.

22/23 season - transition year because of Borthwick leaving and Wigglesworth interim coach.

23/24 season - turning into another transition year because of WC and McKellar’s first season - probably won’t make top 4.

24/25 season. People getting fed up with excuses and don’t want another transition year. Given the reduction in clubs the quality in other squads has improved and we want to be up there in the mix for top 4. Therefore we need more signings to compete.

I do understand the frustration and a lot of it is fairly reasonable. That said, I do think we have been unlucky. Last year was unprecedented in terms of losing a coaching team mid-season like that. Also unlucky in that Pollard gets injured a matter of days before the SF. I do think if he plays, we win that & then we're into the final & i'd have fancied us against Sarries at that point.

This year it has been made tougher with so many at the WC and the attack coach situation. We are unlucky that the Dickens thing has happened - it has happened to us rather than us doing something wrong. I appreciate people may not like it, but those mitigations are real and have to be factored in.

We are ultimately in the results business though, and if the results are not there then tough questions are rightly asked. I can live with the problems this season, given the mitigations in play. Next season will be different and the pressure will be on McKellar to deliver, certainly my personal expectations will higher.

I agree. Look at each season in isolation and everything appears reasonable given the circumstances. Especially this season being new coach and WC year.

But look at everything since 2020 and I’m starting to not actually care about the behind the scenes machinations for next season. I just want to see good players, playing some good rugby and getting some good results. This starts with having a good enough squad for next season. As it stands it’s looking a bit iffy in comparison to other clubs. Especially when you look at their strength in depth 4-8.

I think our squad overall is looking pretty for next season, though i do think a couple more signings will get us to where we need to be. I just think if we get the attack coach situation sorted, then that will drive the biggest improvements for us.

We have lost two games we should have won - Quins at home and Gloucester last week - we threw it away due to our own errors. Nail those and we're in the top 2 and looking pretty, even without an attack coach, which we all know is holding us back.

If the club can land the attack coach, then i do genuinely think we will see good rugby and good results next season.

[AViewFromLe2]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

Nasty 6/lock type, I know one, try George Martin, perfect fit.

I'm not sure what your point is. Neither of us is advocating losing George Martin or not picking him. We're talking about bringing in someone new who we can rotate with Martin and keep the physicality we need.

[LE18]

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

Nasty 6/lock type, I know one, try George Martin, perfect fit.

I'm not sure what your point is. Neither of us is advocating losing George Martin or not picking him. We're talking about bringing in someone new who we can rotate with Martin and keep the physicality we need.

Sorry if I didnt make it clear, Im moving him to No 8, he has all the qualities to replace Weise and we have enough locks coming through. We need a nasty crunching 8 and Martin is it in my opinion.

[AViewFromLe2]

Nasty 6/lock type, I know one, try George Martin, perfect fit.

I'm not sure what your point is. Neither of us is advocating losing George Martin or not picking him. We're talking about bringing in someone new who we can rotate with Martin and keep the physicality we need.

Sorry if I didnt make it clear, Im moving him to No 8, he has all the qualities to replace Weise and we have enough locks coming through. We need a nasty crunching 8 and Martin is it in my opinion.

I'm not sure we do have the locks to make that move. Certainly Chessum Jnr may make it, but he's too untested to move George. Carnduff is a 6 and Tom Manz is probably off as he's not made it to this point.

Beets is coming in and will be competing with Hatherall for the 8 shirt next season. Hatherall is only at lock because of the injuries we have in the second row slot, so will be back in the 8 jersey.

[Stephen18]

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

I don’t really see the point of replacing Wells as realistically he’s not the 2nd choice after Martin. I believe that would be Cam Henderson when fit, Hatherall is also that big back row/2nd row he’s even played there for us this season. So in fact Wells is probably 5th choice if everyone is fit. I think we need to just stop signing people and start backing our academy boys and getting them minutes Lewis chissem will be 22/23 next season, Carnduff 21/22. I think we should only be signing people if true 1st choice is out there and we have knowone we can bring through. Bringing in squad players has restricted academy players coming through this year. The likes of ilione, Edward’s, chissem, Charmicheal(who’s now left for Scotland). So I think at this moment I time the only places we truest need to sign are no8 but not think anyone is available until the season after next with Barbary, mercer, Willis and Simmons. I would have thought all being out of contract and Beets still only 22 (Weise was 24 when he joined) so not quite ready to start every game but definitely getting game time, and development 10 to take over from Pollard in a seasons time as I don’t think Wilkinson will get the position and I don’t think we have anyone coming through the academy.

Yeh but Henderson is going to be either 1. Fully fit and in the Scotland squad, 2. recovering from his injury still.
Reality is O.Chessum and Martin are both going to be with England. Even if the games they miss is limited next season they will still miss games, as well. Also you have to factor the toll International rugby takes on players. Henderson if he's playing like he was will also be with Scotland.

Lewis Chessum has been restricted because he's been injured. He's basically missed a season nearly in terms of development due to injury. Lock and back row are arguably the positions you need the most depth as they are the engine of a team and it consumes generally the most players.

Back Row and Lock are positions you need depth in to be successful
Sarries
Lock: Itoje, Isiekwe, Tizard, Hunter-Hill, Boom, Sodeke (Looked great in U20's), Pearce-Paul

Exeter
Lock: Gray, Jenkins, Tuima, Dunne, Tshiunza, Pearson, Postlethwaite, O'Connor, Teague, Bell, Bailey,

Even when we won the league we had
Lock: Green, Wells, Snyman, Henderson, Martin, Chessum, Manz, L.Chessum,
Factor in that no Internationals players so always here all season


Did Martin and Chessum being 5/6th choice lock hurt them in their development?

I get your argument lock is extremely important especially for a team like us who are forward orientated, but that season there where an extra 6 games and no international break. But in that squad only green, snyman and wells where senior plays chessum was 21, Henderson 22, Martin 21, and chessum made 23 appearances, Martin 22. L chessum is 21 now, carnduff 20, t manz (who I forgot about) 22. It was just that Borthwick seem a lot more prepared to give the academy lad a go and as you say look what they achieved. Plus with the talk of smaller squads and most of the cap going on retaining young talent and the boys who are now internationals. I just feel the cap could be better used than bringing in another snyman, Spenser or enever! But if they could find someone to genuine as a long term 1st like a Batley, cam jorden or kapoku I wouldn’t mind it, just don’t see the point of signing players just to fill a spot in case, when we have back rows who can do that, and I’m still not convinced Hatherall hasn’t been better for us in the row than he has been at 8.

[LE18]

I'm not sure what your point is. Neither of us is advocating losing George Martin or not picking him. We're talking about bringing in someone new who we can rotate with Martin and keep the physicality we need.

Sorry if I didnt make it clear, Im moving him to No 8, he has all the qualities to replace Weise and we have enough locks coming through. We need a nasty crunching 8 and Martin is it in my opinion.

I'm not sure we do have the locks to make that move. Certainly Chessum Jnr may make it, but he's too untested to move George. Carnduff is a 6 and Tom Manz is probably off as he's not made it to this point.

Beets is coming in and will be competing with Hatherall for the 8 shirt next season. Hatherall is only at lock because of the injuries we have in the second row slot, so will be back in the 8 jersey.

You may be right but I think the club will be making a big mistake not picking him at 8 for the future.

[Rugbygramps]

Move Martin to 8 you loose his scrummaging power, Borthwick will not play him anywhere but lock.
How about looking for a really hard ball carrying 7 rather than one who becomes anonymous when the opposition take the chance to jackal off the pitch

[Rugbygramps]

Sorry if I didnt make it clear, Im moving him to No 8, he has all the qualities to replace Weise and we have enough locks coming through. We need a nasty crunching 8 and Martin is it in my opinion.

I'm not sure we do have the locks to make that move. Certainly Chessum Jnr may make it, but he's too untested to move George. Carnduff is a 6 and Tom Manz is probably off as he's not made it to this point.

Beets is coming in and will be competing with Hatherall for the 8 shirt next season. Hatherall is only at lock because of the injuries we have in the second row slot, so will be back in the 8 jersey.

You may be right but I think the club will be making a big mistake not picking him at 8 for the future.

Martin is not a number 8 other than in a dire emergency. Can you explain to me what you see that makes him an 8 that a lot of supporters and a number of coaches are missing

[LE18]

I'm not sure we do have the locks to make that move. Certainly Chessum Jnr may make it, but he's too untested to move George. Carnduff is a 6 and Tom Manz is probably off as he's not made it to this point.

Beets is coming in and will be competing with Hatherall for the 8 shirt next season. Hatherall is only at lock because of the injuries we have in the second row slot, so will be back in the 8 jersey.

You may be right but I think the club will be making a big mistake not picking him at 8 for the future.

Martin is not a number 8 other than in a dire emergency. Can you explain to me what you see that makes him an 8 that a lot of supporters and a number of coaches are missing

I'm clearly in a miority of 1, I can see in him everything a number 8 should be but Im not going to prolong my opinions.

[Rugbygramps]

You may be right but I think the club will be making a big mistake not picking him at 8 for the future.

Martin is not a number 8 other than in a dire emergency. Can you explain to me what you see that makes him an 8 that a lot of supporters and a number of coaches are missing

I'm clearly in a miority of 1, I can see in him everything a number 8 should be but Im not going to prolong my opinions.

Not at all you have your opinions. I am genuinely interested in what you see

[PeteK]

I do think when it comes to signings there’s an underlying level of frustration and people are losing patience of another year of not competing at the top level. I accept some of this is outside the club’s control - but if you look at the last 4 years.

20/21 season - transition year because of Covid-19 / Borthwick first season.

21/22 season - we won.

22/23 season - transition year because of Borthwick leaving and Wigglesworth interim coach.

23/24 season - turning into another transition year because of WC and McKellar’s first season - probably won’t make top 4.

24/25 season. People getting fed up with excuses and don’t want another transition year. Given the reduction in clubs the quality in other squads has improved and we want to be up there in the mix for top 4. Therefore we need more signings to compete.

Getting sick of the transition year excuse, its not a transition year otherwise every year will be one as 10 players have left and 10 new ones in, this coach has left and this one in..., they are a team of professional players they get told to run, pass, ruck etc they do it. No such thing as a transition year. take accountability for the result thats all we want.

[Rugbygramps]

Those that can’t see that time is needed for new coaches to bed in, yes there are always exceptions, need only to look at Bath as an example. This is Van Grams 3rd season, look at the results during the first 18 months to 2 years.
They are a different team to 18 months ago, yes new players help, but they have a different style.

I know posters will disagree but imo it’s unfair to judge things on a World Cup season, let alone one where an 8 week break happens for the first time.
It’s no coincidence that the top 4 premiership sides have settled coaching teams and Quins defence went awol against Sarries now Flannery has left

[AViewFromLe2]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

[GB72]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley, Edwards
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

Do we know whether Watson is signed on for next year. Bearing in mind that we needed the England deal over the World Cup to fit him in the cap this year, I cannot see him getting a hybrid contract or us wanting to pay his full salary to keep him next year. Maybe he had a 2 year hybrid contract with England. No idea.