LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[sk 88]

how old is Kieran Wilkinson?

Same age as Dan Kelly, played 10 & 12 for their school.

[sk 88]

It's not really 12 leavers though is it
Joe Powell, Ben Woolett, Mike Williams all short term signings
Atkinson moving was basically helping to accommodate for Brown's new contract

So that's 4 players off the list of leavers that can't really be accommodated for
Makes it more like 8 players leaving, and 3 brought in not 2.

I buy this for some players, for instance Joe Powell was covering Jack van Poortvliet's injury as one of three senior scrum halfs. JvP is back so Powell leaves and doesn't need replacing. Woollett played one game and is a bit of a nothing burger.

Williams and Atkinson's places in the squad do need replacing though, we will use a third 10 and 6 locks next year. The choice is having permanent cover that is up to speed when needed, but might be lower quality as we have to pay them for an entire year, or signing a player in a pinch when the scenarios that require those players inevitably occur. As you are only signing them for a shorter period you can, if they are available, get better players for less overall cost.

Personally I feel very strongly that teamwork and cohesion are extremely important and it is much better to go with "worse" players who are ours and are fully up to speed with out tactics & drills. In the backs I would ALWAYS trust an academy player to just step up in any of the positions for this reason, and in the forwards I would almost always buy in the required bulk ahead of time. If we're going to trust an academy player in those tight five positions we should be proactively introducing them to build up their experience for when its needed.

For instance if we're going to say Lewis Chessum is our 5th (or 6th) lock next season we should play him in a mixture of starts and bench appearances in 4 of the first 6 fixtures to expose him to the level he will be needed to be at when its the international period & Bath away and we NEED the player to step up. Arguably we are doing that with Carnduff, though I feel we are learning he is ready as a 6 but not as a lock (for now).

[Stephen18]

This is personal opinion, but i think we will only see a centre coming in for sure, as that is the major hole there. TH i think will be covered by Tim Hoyt, which as 4th choice i am comfortable with.

The only question is whether another lock or back row comes in. Personally the answer to that is where they see Hatherall playing. If they see Hatherall primarily as a lock, then we need another back row. If we see him primarily as a back row, we need another lock.

If i was Head of Recruitment, i would have Hatherall as a back row, and look to bring in another lock who is big enough to do the grunt work.

Hoyt has a year lost on his development due to injury, We have Cole, Heyes both looking like there are on the England radar still and now Hurd is on Scotland radar. I would rather give him another year at the championship to begin with he will only be 22 next season.

A TH that can cover LH would def be a priority for me.

I get that, and I would not necessarily be against going with Ellof or someone else like that. I was more thinking of Andrea's comments with us, where she mentioned the intent to use the development guys as wider depth options. With that in mind i was working on the below:

Woodward replacing Cokanasiga
Chessum Junior replacing Carter
Hoyt replacing Richardson

Ultimately I don't see them in training so it is hard to say how ready Hoyt is to step up, however I trust McKellar and Palmer's judgement either way.

I agree with that Hoyt came on against Ealing and l did a job so I think is another for a 4th choice, add van de flier on the loose head is getting good reviews from Nottingham so see him getting the 4th spot there. So only worth getting another prop if your getting real quality for cheap who could compete for 1st choice.
I think we’ll probably sign another 1/2 players an experienced centre (30+) to fill that Scott role to help bring on the young academy centres as for the 1st time in a long time we seem to have 3 in the academy and certainly Woodward looks a real prospect.
Then a ball carrying 8, but with the fact that none of Cracknell, Rodgerson or Hatherall have been released I think we’ll be sticking with what we’ve got there and holding out for someone who becomes available the following season

[Stephen18]

It's not really 12 leavers though is it
Joe Powell, Ben Woolett, Mike Williams all short term signings
Atkinson moving was basically helping to accommodate for Brown's new contract

So that's 4 players off the list of leavers that can't really be accommodated for
Makes it more like 8 players leaving, and 3 brought in not 2.

I buy this for some players, for instance Joe Powell was covering Jack van Poortvliet's injury as one of three senior scrum halfs. JvP is back so Powell leaves and doesn't need replacing. Woollett played one game and is a bit of a nothing burger.

Williams and Atkinson's places in the squad do need replacing though, we will use a third 10 and 6 locks next year. The choice is having permanent cover that is up to speed when needed, but might be lower quality as we have to pay them for an entire year, or signing a player in a pinch when the scenarios that require those players inevitably occur. As you are only signing them for a shorter period you can, if they are available, get better players for less overall cost.

Personally I feel very strongly that teamwork and cohesion are extremely important and it is much better to go with "worse" players who are ours and are fully up to speed with out tactics & drills. In the backs I would ALWAYS trust an academy player to just step up in any of the positions for this reason, and in the forwards I would almost always buy in the required bulk ahead of time. If we're going to trust an academy player in those tight five positions we should be proactively introducing them to build up their experience for when its needed.

For instance if we're going to say Lewis Chessum is our 5th (or 6th) lock next season we should play him in a mixture of starts and bench appearances in 4 of the first 6 fixtures to expose him to the level he will be needed to be at when its the international period & Bath away and we NEED the player to step up. Arguably we are doing that with Carnduff, though I feel we are learning he is ready as a 6 but not as a lock (for now).

I think Carnduff is definitely viewed a 2nd row by the club, but suspect they try and do as they did Martin and Chessum initially and give him time on the back row, but your definitely right we need to find a way to incorporate our academy boys into the 1st a bit better than we have this season put them in the prem cup then barely played or have them about 5mins or less at the end of games, until we needed them recently due to injury and a number them weren’t ready for it.

[ABClub]

Carnduff looks made to play 6 from what I've seen. At 6'4" he'd be well on the short side for a modern lock. That's just shorter than Cameron Woki with a similar build. Woki is the smallest second row at international level I can think of. He's may well shift back to blindside himself longer term given Galthie seems set a 22 stone minimum weight requirement for one of his lock berths.

Carnduff is a brilliant talent but it's at blindside everyday for me to maximise his talent. He looks like an ideal understudy to Hanro in terms of style as well.

[Rugbygramps]

Carnduff looks made to play 6 from what I've seen. At 6'4" he'd be well on the short side for a modern lock. That's just shorter than Cameron Woki with a similar build. Woki is the smallest second row at international level I can think of. He's may well shift back to blindside himself longer term given Galthie seems set a 22 stone minimum weight requirement for one of his lock berths.

Carnduff is a brilliant talent but it's at blindside everyday for me to maximise his talent. He looks like an ideal understudy to Hanro in terms of style as well.

I agree with all the above. Carnduff reminds a little of Tom Croft admittedly not quite as quick.
In the modern game the majority of back 5 players need more than one position. I really hope he becomes the 6 to replace to replace Liebenberg moving to lock if required

[ABClub]

For instance if we're going to say Lewis Chessum is our 5th (or 6th) lock next season we should play him in a mixture of starts and bench appearances in 4 of the first 6 fixtures to expose him to the level he will be needed to be at when its the international period & Bath away and we NEED the player to step up. Arguably we are doing that with Carnduff, though I feel we are learning he is ready as a 6 but not as a lock (for now).

This. Hooker feels like a perfect example next season with Dolly leaving. We should aim to start both Vanes and FTT with Smith and Cole early in the season. Then bring Montoya off the bench with Whitcombe. You get to see the younger hookers start with the first choice props (which will teach us something) and Whitcombe scrummaging alongside Montoya (which teaches us something). Plus you get the impact of Montoya coming on with 30 minutes left. We shouldn't have 2 and 16 tattooed on Montoya and Clare until one or both are unavailable, then think, "Gosh this is unlucky, hope the lineout and scrum do alright away to Sarries".

[AViewFromLe2]

I think Carnduff is a 6. Hanro is 6'6, and Finn is 6'4, so he is shorter than Hanro, however he does weigh the same as Hanro. A a result, I think he is perfectly suited for the back row. Plus being shorter means he is better suited for a turnover as we saw at Newcastle.

[fentiger]

I think Carnduff is a 6. Hanro is 6'6, and Finn is 6'4, so he is shorter than Hanro, however he does weigh the same as Hanro. A a result, I think he is perfectly suited for the back row. Plus being shorter means he is better suited for a turnover as we saw at Newcastle.

I think someone else already said Carnduff reminds them of Crofty, he didn't turn out too bad

[longlivethecrumbie]

I think Carnduff is a 6. Hanro is 6'6, and Finn is 6'4, so he is shorter than Hanro, however he does weigh the same as Hanro. A a result, I think he is perfectly suited for the back row. Plus being shorter means he is better suited for a turnover as we saw at Newcastle.

I think someone else already said Carnduff reminds them of Crofty, he didn't turn out too bad

If he's half as good he will be a very good player. Crofty is my all-time favourite. Such an amazing rugby player. Wonder how he'd do in the modern game?

[Leicestertinytiger]

With Rogerson and Cracknell staying I do hope McKellar trusts them more next season and rotates better. There have been times with Liebenberg and Reffell that he’s definitely played them when they could’ve done with a rest. Cracknell showed against Leinster he’s got the ability and Rogerson played properly at 6 is really good.

Always think Sarries and Exeter do it best in how they rotate and manage their squads over the season.

[Rugbygramps]

With Rogerson and Carnduff both more than capable 6s it may be that Liebenberg spends more time at 8

[johnthegriff]

Argentina have a lot of matches to play in July, August and September, Montoya will have had little rest from the end of this season before joining us after the start of next, I think our young bookers will get plenty of game time.

[ABClub]

I think either Fiji Drua second rows Nasilasila or Rotuisolia could be good targets.

Nasilasila impressed me for Fiji at the RWC. He's a really good all round lock but has much better ball skills than many Tigers forwards. If McKellar is going down the route of getting over the gain line by using attacking patterns and shifting the ball near contact, rather than brute force, then tight five players with a passing game are very useful.

On the other end of the spectrum, Rotuisolia is less rounded in his skills but he is a big unit who hits things hard. He could be a useful tactical difference to the the other locks. Especially given we already use Hanro as a primary lineout option. Which lessens the pressure of a weaker jumper at lock.

Once Jasper was confirmed as away I really hoped that Vaea Fifita would be a target. He's mainly played 8 this season for Scarlets, he won't be cheap but if there was space to make Jasper an offer then likewise for Fifita. Quality lineout jumper too. It sounds like he's heading to Montpellier though.

I can't find anything on his contract length at the Sharks but Francois Venter strikes me as an ideal Porter replacement. Knows the Prem inside out, defensive organiser from 12 or 13, solid crash ball runner, very good record with injury/availability.

[Tigersunited]

I get fans frustration I just don’t understand the mind set. If Mckellar were to go what happens next season if his replacement fails in the mind of fans, do we get rid of them too, then rinse and repeat until we luck on a successful one.
It is no coincidence that Exeter and Sarries have long standing head coaches. Even at Saints Dowson and Vesty have had a few seasons now initially learning their trade under Boyd who still consults from afar

I don’t expect anyone to understand my mindset, I don’t have confidence in him, at the moment - I think we could well end up outside the top 6, which with our squad, would be huge underachievement, if we make top 4 I’ll gladly eat my words.
I would change any coach that fails and struggle to get my head around keeping someone just because a potential replacement my not succeed.

Just so I understand you would get rid of Mckellar and then if his replacement wasn’t successful you’d get rid of him too. That will lead to a consistency of approach wouldn’t it

That really is the football mentality

Not sure why success is only a football mentality and yes I would get rid of a coach that is not good enough.