LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[sam16111986]

Yes,some kind of switch was definitely flicked. We were night and day in the last 2 games

If you start from scratch again you need to pick your priorities. England picked defence and attacking ruck speed early doors, which makes sense as the ruck coach was only available for a short period. The attacking game plan seen in the last two games was present Vs Scotland the difference was execution. Hopefully the more games they play with these new systems the more cohesion we see.

Dan Cole said the attack was refined over the 6N period. Training was roughly 60/40 in favour of defence for the first half and then 60/40 in favour of attack in the second.

Lawrence return to full fitness and form has certainly helped too but BY would definitely disagree with Coles 60/40

He didn't when Cole said it on their podcast. Mainly because Cole was in camp and Ben wasn't so could provide some insight. I doubt any of the media will run with it as they can't use it to condemn Borthwick with, they also commented on how Ben's chat about training attack was taken out of context by the media.

[Scott1]

If you start from scratch again you need to pick your priorities. England picked defence and attacking ruck speed early doors, which makes sense as the ruck coach was only available for a short period. The attacking game plan seen in the last two games was present Vs Scotland the difference was execution. Hopefully the more games they play with these new systems the more cohesion we see.

Dan Cole said the attack was refined over the 6N period. Training was roughly 60/40 in favour of defence for the first half and then 60/40 in favour of attack in the second.

Lawrence return to full fitness and form has certainly helped too but BY would definitely disagree with Coles 60/40

He didn't when Cole said it on their podcast. Mainly because Cole was in camp and Ben wasn't so could provide some insight. I doubt any of the media will run with it as they can't use it to condemn Borthwick with, they also commented on how Ben's chat about training attack was taken out of context by the media.

Ill wait for the autobiographies

[sam16111986]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

If we could replace Cracknell with Basham and then replace Carter and Rogerson with a big nasty lock/6 that would be good. Give scope to promote the development lads a bit as there's one less senior squad member but at the same time upgrade the senior squad options.

[Stephen18]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

I don’t really see the point of replacing Wells as realistically he’s not the 2nd choice after Martin. I believe that would be Cam Henderson when fit, Hatherall is also that big back row/2nd row he’s even played there for us this season. So in fact Wells is probably 5th choice if everyone is fit. I think we need to just stop signing people and start backing our academy boys and getting them minutes Lewis chissem will be 22/23 next season, Carnduff 21/22. I think we should only be signing people if true 1st choice is out there and we have knowone we can bring through. Bringing in squad players has restricted academy players coming through this year. The likes of ilione, Edward’s, chissem, Charmicheal(who’s now left for Scotland). So I think at this moment I time the only places we truest need to sign are no8 but not think anyone is available until the season after next with Barbary, mercer, Willis and Simmons. I would have thought all being out of contract and Beets still only 22 (Weise was 24 when he joined) so not quite ready to start every game but definitely getting game time, and development 10 to take over from Pollard in a seasons time as I don’t think Wilkinson will get the position and I don’t think we have anyone coming through the academy.

[sk 88]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

Given we need a minimum of 5 senior locks next season (+ Lewis Chessum getting fit & playing minutes + Carnduff playing occasionally at lock), I wouldn't be looking to move Wells on at all, but would be looking to sign a lock to take that 4th spot in the squad, with Wells as the fifth option.

You use as many players at lock as at prop & it's a specialist position, just because you can drop a Hatherell or a Liebenberg in there doesn't mean you should be planning on it unless you are getting a high rate of injuries.

[AViewFromLe2]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

Given we need a minimum of 5 senior locks next season (+ Lewis Chessum getting fit & playing minutes + Carnduff playing occasionally at lock), I wouldn't be looking to move Wells on at all, but would be looking to sign a lock to take that 4th spot in the squad, with Wells as the fifth option.

You use as many players at lock as at prop & it's a specialist position, just because you can drop a Hatherell or a Liebenberg in there doesn't mean you should be planning on it unless you are getting a high rate of injuries.

Yes when i meant upgrading Wells, it was by dropping him back in the pecking order rather than him leaving the club.

Hatherall is nice lock cover but he is nothing more than that. I want Hatherall competing for the 8 shirt next season with Beets, rather than having to be a stop gap filler in the second row like he has been doing.

[sk 88]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

Given we need a minimum of 5 senior locks next season (+ Lewis Chessum getting fit & playing minutes + Carnduff playing occasionally at lock), I wouldn't be looking to move Wells on at all, but would be looking to sign a lock to take that 4th spot in the squad, with Wells as the fifth option.

You use as many players at lock as at prop & it's a specialist position, just because you can drop a Hatherell or a Liebenberg in there doesn't mean you should be planning on it unless you are getting a high rate of injuries.

Yes when i meant upgrading Wells, it was by dropping him back in the pecking order rather than him leaving the club.

Hatherall is nice lock cover but he is nothing more than that. I want Hatherall competing for the 8 shirt next season with Beets, rather than having to be a stop gap filler in the second row like he has been doing.

100% agree in that case.

[RagingBull]

Thought Basham was mates with OHC at LI?

Tbf I do agree somewhat about Hatherell. If he could rediscover the form he had for Worcester / La Rochelle I’d have no problems with him starting. He showed then he was a great carrier. Something he hasn’t quite shown in a Tigers shirt yet but the ability is obviously there.

Similar to the discussion about Wells, and other guys clearly off it a bit like Kelly, when there are this many players not hitting their straps it points to something more than the individual players to me.

Maybe but I thought the same about Wells last season as well though.

He's good but I just feel the gaps to big for the enforcer style space.

[RagingBull]

I know it didn't go down too well on here when i suggested it last time, but i do stand by thinking that we need to look at upgrading Harry Wells. I appreciate he is a good club man, but the last 2 games against Gloucester he was completely ineffective. Tbh i'd say the same about the Ealing game as well; in a game against Championship opposition, he just didn't impose himself at all. His form all season, ever since the shoulder operation is nowhere near previous levels and it is a pretty stark drop off. I would be looking at bolstering our lock division on getting a big, heavy unit in the second row.

I've been saying this for a while now. My preference as soon as Wiese said he was going was to find a nasty lock/6 hybird type player that sale do really well with finding. (Largely because Wiese is pretty much impossible to replace like for like)

He will always give his all, but the drop from Martin to Wells is just too big in terms of physicality. Green always had his lineout ability to bring as he got into his final years and imo our mauls never looked as good in defence and attack without him.

Aside a back rower I have always liked the look of is Josh Basham his stint in Falcons he was a beast. Japan will be a great experience but at 24 I feel that he will miss the competitive feel of prem rugby like Burns did, he would be for a me a younger upgrade on Rogerson in that he can cover the back row pretty effectively regardless of position.

I don’t really see the point of replacing Wells as realistically he’s not the 2nd choice after Martin. I believe that would be Cam Henderson when fit, Hatherall is also that big back row/2nd row he’s even played there for us this season. So in fact Wells is probably 5th choice if everyone is fit. I think we need to just stop signing people and start backing our academy boys and getting them minutes Lewis chissem will be 22/23 next season, Carnduff 21/22. I think we should only be signing people if true 1st choice is out there and we have knowone we can bring through. Bringing in squad players has restricted academy players coming through this year. The likes of ilione, Edward’s, chissem, Charmicheal(who’s now left for Scotland). So I think at this moment I time the only places we truest need to sign are no8 but not think anyone is available until the season after next with Barbary, mercer, Willis and Simmons. I would have thought all being out of contract and Beets still only 22 (Weise was 24 when he joined) so not quite ready to start every game but definitely getting game time, and development 10 to take over from Pollard in a seasons time as I don’t think Wilkinson will get the position and I don’t think we have anyone coming through the academy.

Yeh but Henderson is going to be either 1. Fully fit and in the Scotland squad, 2. recovering from his injury still.
Reality is O.Chessum and Martin are both going to be with England. Even if the games they miss is limited next season they will still miss games, as well. Also you have to factor the toll International rugby takes on players. Henderson if he's playing like he was will also be with Scotland.

Lewis Chessum has been restricted because he's been injured. He's basically missed a season nearly in terms of development due to injury. Lock and back row are arguably the positions you need the most depth as they are the engine of a team and it consumes generally the most players.

Back Row and Lock are positions you need depth in to be successful
Sarries
Lock: Itoje, Isiekwe, Tizard, Hunter-Hill, Boom, Sodeke (Looked great in U20's), Pearce-Paul

Exeter
Lock: Gray, Jenkins, Tuima, Dunne, Tshiunza, Pearson, Postlethwaite, O'Connor, Teague, Bell, Bailey,

Even when we won the league we had
Lock: Green, Wells, Snyman, Henderson, Martin, Chessum, Manz, L.Chessum,
Factor in that no Internationals players so always here all season


Did Martin and Chessum being 5/6th choice lock hurt them in their development?

[Leicestertinytiger]

I do think when it comes to signings there’s an underlying level of frustration and people are losing patience of another year of not competing at the top level. I accept some of this is outside the club’s control - but if you look at the last 4 years.

20/21 season - transition year because of Covid-19 / Borthwick first season.

21/22 season - we won.

22/23 season - transition year because of Borthwick leaving and Wigglesworth interim coach.

23/24 season - turning into another transition year because of WC and McKellar’s first season - probably won’t make top 4.

24/25 season. People getting fed up with excuses and don’t want another transition year. Given the reduction in clubs the quality in other squads has improved and we want to be up there in the mix for top 4. Therefore we need more signings to compete.

[RagingBull]

I mean last season we got to the Semi Finals and in all reality could've beaten Sale if not for Pollard pulling out before the game due to his calf.
I wouldn't call it a transition year either, if anything we looked worse before Borthwick and Sinfield left. Walters I feel will turn out to be the biggest loss.

Like what do you class as top level? you can't realistically expect to win every year.
This is the first year since that first Borthwick season, it's felt like a transition year and tbf it wasn't just a RWC but we lost every coach nearly (and it makes you wonder why Borthwick didn't take the other coaches he left us).

I'm frustrated not because of lack of top level finishing it's just how poor we have looked at times.

[GB72]

Honestly, I see now as when the gap starts to develop between those with big money backers and those without. Those who can still offer the big contracts and those who simply cannot afford it.

I just get the feeling that our finances are more precarious than is being let on. Just little things bringing in that doubt plus I have my tin foil hat firmly in place.

This is totally unfounded, no rumours and no grounds to think it whatsoever and it is me being in total conspiracy theory mode but I get this suspicion that we will lose one or two more big name players before next season and my totally unfounded theory is that Pollard will not be here by the time next season kicks off.

[AViewFromLe2]

I do think when it comes to signings there’s an underlying level of frustration and people are losing patience of another year of not competing at the top level. I accept some of this is outside the club’s control - but if you look at the last 4 years.

20/21 season - transition year because of Covid-19 / Borthwick first season.

21/22 season - we won.

22/23 season - transition year because of Borthwick leaving and Wigglesworth interim coach.

23/24 season - turning into another transition year because of WC and McKellar’s first season - probably won’t make top 4.

24/25 season. People getting fed up with excuses and don’t want another transition year. Given the reduction in clubs the quality in other squads has improved and we want to be up there in the mix for top 4. Therefore we need more signings to compete.

I do understand the frustration and a lot of it is fairly reasonable. That said, I do think we have been unlucky. Last year was unprecedented in terms of losing a coaching team mid-season like that. Also unlucky in that Pollard gets injured a matter of days before the SF. I do think if he plays, we win that & then we're into the final & i'd have fancied us against Sarries at that point.

This year it has been made tougher with so many at the WC and the attack coach situation. We are unlucky that the Dickens thing has happened - it has happened to us rather than us doing something wrong. I appreciate people may not like it, but those mitigations are real and have to be factored in.

We are ultimately in the results business though, and if the results are not there then tough questions are rightly asked. I can live with the problems this season, given the mitigations in play. Next season will be different and the pressure will be on McKellar to deliver, certainly my personal expectations will higher.

[RagingBull]

Not sure whether I find the number of players getting early releases concerning or not.

On the one hand, if they are not part of our plans for the season then getting them off the wage bill makes sense.

On the other hand, and this may just be me, there does seem to be more than the usual number of mid season departures this year and that does bring about a concern as to actually how tight our finances actually are.

For me it doesn't raise a concern (yet)

With the fact it was a world cup year and we were disproportionately affected by call ups we carried a slightly bloated squad into this season. Especially in a couple of positions we were short...
Namely: Scrum Half, Tighthead and lock. Each of these were where we had 2 or 3 players unavailable in the same position through the world cup.
Hence: Carter, Williams, Powell were all primarily cover for guys at the world cup. We also picked up a couple of guys from collapsed clubs that were a bit of a surprise, e.g. Rogerson and Atkinson.

Those things combined pretty much explains the midseason departures...

I agree to a certain extent and am happy to accept that as the position for the time being. It is just something nagging at the back of my head that we are really cutting things to the bone at the moment and that there may not be that much give left before something breaks.

As you say, it may just be good business sense to clear out some bloat in the squad from after the world cup and I hope that this is the case.

I will happily accept that as the situation unless we start seeing more big names leave to be replaced by prospects.

Just on this point you know we have signed two internationals right aswell?

[Leicestertinytiger]

I do think when it comes to signings there’s an underlying level of frustration and people are losing patience of another year of not competing at the top level. I accept some of this is outside the club’s control - but if you look at the last 4 years.

20/21 season - transition year because of Covid-19 / Borthwick first season.

21/22 season - we won.

22/23 season - transition year because of Borthwick leaving and Wigglesworth interim coach.

23/24 season - turning into another transition year because of WC and McKellar’s first season - probably won’t make top 4.

24/25 season. People getting fed up with excuses and don’t want another transition year. Given the reduction in clubs the quality in other squads has improved and we want to be up there in the mix for top 4. Therefore we need more signings to compete.

I do understand the frustration and a lot of it is fairly reasonable. That said, I do think we have been unlucky. Last year was unprecedented in terms of losing a coaching team mid-season like that. Also unlucky in that Pollard gets injured a matter of days before the SF. I do think if he plays, we win that & then we're into the final & i'd have fancied us against Sarries at that point.

This year it has been made tougher with so many at the WC and the attack coach situation. We are unlucky that the Dickens thing has happened - it has happened to us rather than us doing something wrong. I appreciate people may not like it, but those mitigations are real and have to be factored in.

We are ultimately in the results business though, and if the results are not there then tough questions are rightly asked. I can live with the problems this season, given the mitigations in play. Next season will be different and the pressure will be on McKellar to deliver, certainly my personal expectations will higher.

I agree. Look at each season in isolation and everything appears reasonable given the circumstances. Especially this season being new coach and WC year.

But look at everything since 2020 and I’m starting to not actually care about the behind the scenes machinations for next season. I just want to see good players, playing some good rugby and getting some good results. This starts with having a good enough squad for next season. As it stands it’s looking a bit iffy in comparison to other clubs. Especially when you look at their strength in depth 4-8.