LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[RagingBull]

IDK I'm not that sold on Jordan, he played really well v us, but how much is that coming back to the old club to prove a point?

I don't think he would want to come here for 4th choice lock and I don't think he's good enough to be what I would want for 3rd choice. Henderson is def a must keep. Honestly I prefer Hatherall to lock than Wells ATM would like to see him with Chessum.

Going into next season the squad for me so far should look like
1. Smith, Cronin, Whitcombe, AVDF, Miell,
2. Montoya, Clare, FTT, Vanes, Smith, Clarke
3. Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt, Crane
4. Martin, Hatherell, Wells, Thomas,
5. Chessum, Henderson, L.Chessum,
6. Hanro, Carnduff, Cracknell, J.Manz
7. Reffell, Ilione, Beddall
8. Beets, Rogerson
9. JVP, Youngs, Whiteley, Allen
10. Pollard,Wilkinson,
11. OHC, Simmons, Kinder
12. Kelly, Kata, Woodward
13. Perese, Myall
14. Watson, Bassett, Salata
15. Steward, Shillcock, Brown, Gourlay

Recruitment really better not be done.
Def need a TH prop IMO Hurd not looked great since his injury may need time I guess though
After seeing Carnduff at 6 i'm cooling more on needing another Lock. Hatherell plays more at lock, I like this more and more on the whole. He does what Martin does, not as brutal as Martin but too a better standard than most. Gives us a genuine carrying option at lock.
4. Hatherell, 5. Henderson, 6. Carnduff, 7. Ilione, 8. Hanro
But feel we need someone at 8 You know what honestly I wouldn't mind trying to do a Leinster and signing a really top 8 or lock for after the AI's 6 months on 200K for someone world class to finish the season and help cover Martin and Chessum going.
Def need a back up 10 IMO
Def need a senior centre option

That's the at least aspect for me.

Cracknell, Rogerson, Watson being in contract another season could hurt us next season. Really should've been Cracknell or Rogerson cause both are more 6's who can play 7 and 8. Cracknell especially was really good as a 6 with London Irish has never played their for us. I wouldn't mind seeing a

6. Cracknell, 7. Ilione, 8. Hanro back row one time. Irish thrived off having 6. Cracknell, 7. Gonzalez, 8. SOB back row of a similar style.

Senior academy sounds like a big shake up is happening, I would like to see some more players being brought in from outside if we do have leavers.

[Stephen18]

I always think on the big players you want them settled down. So on Pollard (presuming his contract finishes 2025) as soon as the season finishes I'd have two offers for him.

1) A contract extension for a further two seasons (to end in 2027) on good terms.
2) A transfer to a SA franchise.

Basically we either focus on a build around you for three seasons or we move forward now. I'd be up for him staying, his poor form at the moment is a symptom of our disfunction not a cause. But we don't want another season dominated by a transfer saga over a big player.

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Hate to agree but you’re right about Rogerson and Cracknell. Both are great squad players and I rate both of them. Probably Cracknell slightly higher but having both in the squad really is overkill.

Especially when we’ve got some good young players who’ll want game time. Carnduff at 6 and Illione at 7 both deserve minutes on the pitch THIS season, before we even look ahead to next season.

Cracknell and Rogerson at 7 doesn’t work either. So where do they fit in, especially when Chessum can cover 6.

In the backs I’m hoping both Simmons and Watson coming back could be game changers and something special.

[Stephen18]

IDK I'm not that sold on Jordan, he played really well v us, but how much is that coming back to the old club to prove a point?

I don't think he would want to come here for 4th choice lock and I don't think he's good enough to be what I would want for 3rd choice. Henderson is def a must keep. Honestly I prefer Hatherall to lock than Wells ATM would like to see him with Chessum.

Going into next season the squad for me so far should look like
1. Smith, Cronin, Whitcombe, AVDF, Miell,
2. Montoya, Clare, FTT, Vanes, Smith, Clarke
3. Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt, Crane
4. Martin, Hatherell, Wells, Thomas,
5. Chessum, Henderson, L.Chessum,
6. Hanro, Carnduff, Cracknell, J.Manz
7. Reffell, Ilione, Beddall
8. Beets, Rogerson
9. JVP, Youngs, Whiteley, Allen
10. Pollard,Wilkinson,
11. OHC, Simmons, Kinder
12. Kelly, Kata, Woodward
13. Perese, Myall
14. Watson, Bassett, Salata
15. Steward, Shillcock, Brown, Gourlay

Recruitment really better not be done.
Def need a TH prop IMO Hurd not looked great since his injury may need time I guess though
After seeing Carnduff at 6 i'm cooling more on needing another Lock. Hatherell plays more at lock, I like this more and more on the whole. He does what Martin does, not as brutal as Martin but too a better standard than most. Gives us a genuine carrying option at lock.
4. Hatherell, 5. Henderson, 6. Carnduff, 7. Ilione, 8. Hanro
But feel we need someone at 8 You know what honestly I wouldn't mind trying to do a Leinster and signing a really top 8 or lock for after the AI's 6 months on 200K for someone world class to finish the season and help cover Martin and Chessum going.
Def need a back up 10 IMO
Def need a senior centre option

That's the at least aspect for me.

Cracknell, Rogerson, Watson being in contract another season could hurt us next season. Really should've been Cracknell or Rogerson cause both are more 6's who can play 7 and 8. Cracknell especially was really good as a 6 with London Irish has never played their for us. I wouldn't mind seeing a

6. Cracknell, 7. Ilione, 8. Hanro back row one time. Irish thrived off having 6. Cracknell, 7. Gonzalez, 8. SOB back row of a similar style.

Senior academy sounds like a big shake up is happening, I would like to see some more players being brought in from outside if we do have leavers.

Got to agree about a lot of recent recruitment not adding much other than squad players, I feel our recruitment has been pretty bang average since Jan McGinity was pushed out by borthwick to bring in Wilkes. Only plays who have really made any impact since have been Brown and Ashton. Looks at the amount of young talent everyone else picked up from Worcester, wasps and London Irish and they propelled them up the league, whilst we seem to have stalled.

[RagingBull]

I always think on the big players you want them settled down. So on Pollard (presuming his contract finishes 2025) as soon as the season finishes I'd have two offers for him.

1) A contract extension for a further two seasons (to end in 2027) on good terms.
2) A transfer to a SA franchise.

Basically we either focus on a build around you for three seasons or we move forward now. I'd be up for him staying, his poor form at the moment is a symptom of our disfunction not a cause. But we don't want another season dominated by a transfer saga over a big player.

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

Biggest issue with Atkinson is he has never been first choice goal kicker. Even at Wasps Gopperth or Umaga are ahead of him, and the trouble is we don't have any other backs who are regularly kickers in the typical starting XV.

Finn Smith is great I guess the issue is what young 10 is about who with that potential though? Maybe Costelow potentially?

You also got to remember Smith had a full season and a half as Worcester starting 10 in the premiership so he wasn't completely green when he got to Saints.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Costelow only has 12 Welsh caps so unless he is going to stop his international career he won't be coming back anytime soon unless the WRU throw the towel in with the cap ruling.

Would like to know how hard we tried to persuade him to stay at Tigers.

[sam16111986]

I always think on the big players you want them settled down. So on Pollard (presuming his contract finishes 2025) as soon as the season finishes I'd have two offers for him.

1) A contract extension for a further two seasons (to end in 2027) on good terms.
2) A transfer to a SA franchise.

Basically we either focus on a build around you for three seasons or we move forward now. I'd be up for him staying, his poor form at the moment is a symptom of our disfunction not a cause. But we don't want another season dominated by a transfer saga over a big player.

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

Saints had already had discussions with Biggar and he'd said he wasn't staying beyond the end of that season. The rumours were they'd already done a deal for Fin Smith to come in before Worcester went bust and then just brought him in earlier when they did. Toulon had an injury crisis and Biggar requested to go early and Saints said yes as it was a significant cost saving.

Were Pollard to indicate he isn't going to be signing a new deal we'd probably start looking around as there's very few flyhalfs of suitable levels to come in and replicate his level of performance. He is unfairly maligned because he doesn't do flashy things in my opinion. I think there's another 10% or so to come from him but he's not playing badly.

I'm not aware of a standout young EQ 10 we could go after currently. Louie Johnson has agreed to go to Sarries. Smith isn't leaving Saints. Orlando Bailey has a contract to 2026 with Bath. We'd probably have to look abroad again and I'd rather give Wilkinson a shot as I think he's got more than he's been allowed to show so far.

[SETiger]

Do we not think that the current problems go beyond Pollard? And bedding in a new first-choice 10 is going to set us back a bit in our "journey", if you will?

Pollard's kicking from hand certainly isn't what we might expect at the moment but I don't think the Saints defeat was a question of him being out-played by Furbank/Smith. You can't blame Pollard for, say, our back row being out-played by theirs, or for Steward and Shillcock combining to butcher two huge chances.

I can see the logic in wanting a longer-term commitment from him if we're to move forward, but it might simply not be possible, or be counter-productive to try to go down that route.

The club (or Borthwick) seemed to think that having Pollard first choice and Atkinson to gain experience and eventually take over was the ideal situation. If Atkinson wasn't really working out (and it looked like he wasn't), then he's the player that needs replaced, from the academy or from the market. If Shillcock was really thought of as the Atkinson replacement in that regard, then the last few weeks seems to have established that 15 is his best position.

[Stephen18]

I always think on the big players you want them settled down. So on Pollard (presuming his contract finishes 2025) as soon as the season finishes I'd have two offers for him.

1) A contract extension for a further two seasons (to end in 2027) on good terms.
2) A transfer to a SA franchise.

Basically we either focus on a build around you for three seasons or we move forward now. I'd be up for him staying, his poor form at the moment is a symptom of our disfunction not a cause. But we don't want another season dominated by a transfer saga over a big player.

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

Biggest issue with Atkinson is he has never been first choice goal kicker. Even at Wasps Gopperth or Umaga are ahead of him, and the trouble is we don't have any other backs who are regularly kickers in the typical starting XV.

Finn Smith is great I guess the issue is what young 10 is about who with that potential though? Maybe Costelow potentially?

You also got to remember Smith had a full season and a half as Worcester starting 10 in the premiership so he wasn't completely green when he got to Saints.

I completely agree Atkinsons kicking was poor and I also feel he was neevrr going to be able to play our way of playing, but signed him then never backed him and gave him a run of games and replaced him with Gopperth when he was here and Shilcock when he arrived. then they also bought in Wilkinson and haven’t given him a single minute, apparently we’ve let the academy 10 go as well. So I don’t know where they’re going to find a young 10 or if we’re even looking, as I don’t really have a lot of faith in our recruitment at the minute or really our academy in the backs as the only back to come through in recent years is steward and the only talked about as possibly coming through is Woodward.

[Stephen18]

I always think on the big players you want them settled down. So on Pollard (presuming his contract finishes 2025) as soon as the season finishes I'd have two offers for him.

1) A contract extension for a further two seasons (to end in 2027) on good terms.
2) A transfer to a SA franchise.

Basically we either focus on a build around you for three seasons or we move forward now. I'd be up for him staying, his poor form at the moment is a symptom of our disfunction not a cause. But we don't want another season dominated by a transfer saga over a big player.

For me personally I think if someone came in for pollard I’d let him go, I don’t think he’s a club player I think like a lot of the South African he’s only really bothered about the springboks look at the number of them that have gone to Ireland and France and aldi not really done anything. I thought when we bought him it was a panic buy due to losing George Ford, and outside of a handful of moments he’s never looked a match winner for us.
I know Atkinson didn’t workout for us, (weather we didn’t back him and give him enough game time I’m not sure) but I think either promoting or bringing in a young 20-22year on building a team around them and just back them and give them the time to become a premiership player is the route we should go. Look at saints with Finn smith they had Bigger but decided to back Smith and let Bigger leave, he had some ropey performances early on but they stuck with him, now look a season and half later.

Saints had already had discussions with Biggar and he'd said he wasn't staying beyond the end of that season. The rumours were they'd already done a deal for Fin Smith to come in before Worcester went bust and then just brought him in earlier when they did. Toulon had an injury crisis and Biggar requested to go early and Saints said yes as it was a significant cost saving.

Were Pollard to indicate he isn't going to be signing a new deal we'd probably start looking around as there's very few flyhalfs of suitable levels to come in and replicate his level of performance. He is unfairly maligned because he doesn't do flashy things in my opinion. I think there's another 10% or so to come from him but he's not playing badly.

I'm not aware of a standout young EQ 10 we could go after currently. Louie Johnson has agreed to go to Sarries. Smith isn't leaving Saints. Orlando Bailey has a contract to 2026 with Bath. We'd probably have to look abroad again and I'd rather give Wilkinson a shot as I think he's got more than he's been allowed to show so far.

Yeah I get that saints had already agree for smith the next season I’m not say we should have got him but they had the faith in n him to let Biggar go early and let him take the team, we haven’t allowed any young player to do that. Especially Wilkinson he 24 now and agin we’ve played Shilcock over him when ever we’ve had the chance. So if they think he’s good enough who where we looking at when we released Atkinson, did we look at the Newcastle lad and missed out where we looking any of the unsigned u18 and 20’s that bath and sale have signed, I just don’t see at the minute how our recruitment is planing for the future and that predates Dan mcKeller.
Realistic do we want to sign pollard on again, he a large chunk of money taking our marquee player slot but not playing like it, when you could sign Montoya up to that to make sure we retain him with talk of the pumas rejoining super rugby. And pollard not going to talk a pay cut to stay I’d imagine so you’d have thought he’d be leaving for Japan or South Africa.

[DeadlyDunc]

As I said in the match thread if it’s true that we’ve basically done our recruitment then I do worry for next season.

Hurd doesn’t look good enough, Smith at TH should be an upgrade though. Hooker is well stocked.

Agree with RB on Hatherall at lock and that we have too many “samey” players for blind side flanker behind Hanro. Carnduff looks like he could be a real deal though. Hatherall, Rogerson and Cracknell offer nothing for me at 7 - Ilione has to have a higher ceiling so worth trying IMO.

8 is going to be a problem without Jasper, Hanro is okay at 8 but unless Beets hits the ground running it’ll be a slow, ponderous back row especially if Ilione and Reffell aren’t picked or away respectively.

Half backs are okay but the drop off from Handre is stark - no real options spring to mind as others have said above.

My major worry aside from 8 is a lack of pace throughout the back line. Perese will help but OHC looks unengaged and missing the extra yard of pace he used to have.

After that? No X factor at all aside from JVP who is sharp.

Over the past 5-6 years we seem to have an uncanny ability to find & recruit a back line that is so one paced it’s untrue. Nadolo being Nadolo meant we had a genuine X factor and Ashy was still elite in his running lines and had some wheels left.

I think we need to find 2-3 backs that can bring that change in pace that is so important against well drilled defences. Without Jasper its going to be even harder as well miss his carrying into and through contact.

If we have what we have for next season then it’s going to take some incredible coaching to create an attack that will put fear in the better teams domestically let along Europe.

[sapajo]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

[DeadlyDunc]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they see agree or disagree with my observation?

Agreed.

Nemzy was able to do freakish things but probably papered over some of the issues along with Ashy. Potter was sharp but not express pace but I’d say faster than Bassett?

So we’ve lost the two world class wingers (and Watson injured) and replaced them with a decent prem winger in Bassett and a neutered OHC - Kata playing on the wing could be an option if Perese hits his straps early.

IMO for a fair few recent years we were recruiting backs for a limited game plan and ones that could kick chase all day rather than being jet heeled or a threat ball in hand.

[westwinds31]

I have often posted that Tigers lack genuine pace and a ball carrying threat. I thought we solved that issue signing OHC and Watson not to mention Wiese.

Strikes me that OHC as has been widely muted is a different player from when he was at Irish, Watson is still long term injured and Wiese is off.

I am left thinking we are therefore back to square one lacking genuine pace and a ball carrying threat.


Anyone care to comment if they agree or disagree with my observation?

I agree with this, with the caveat that Chessum has really improved his carrying through contact. He had some monster carries yesterday. He can't do it on his own though, Martin being fit is the obvious other option and Henderson was looking very good until he got injured, so all is not lost, assuming we can get those 3 on the field at the same time. Martin's injury woes are a big concern for someone of his age.

I don't necessarily agree with OHC. It seems he was "in the seat" yesterday, getting heat from all angles, including Healey, who should keep his individual criticism to himself, not air it on live TV - in my opinion. The comment about OHC's chase when we hoofed in down field, not being full speed was inaccurate, to me he was sprinting, but people have picked up on it, as well as a ruck that he apparently could have hit. Looking at it again, I'm not entirely sure that if he had hit that ruck he'd have stopped any momentum. It's very picky. OHC in my view is a victim of our stuttering attack - lack of attack coach - it strikes me he's a player that needs an arm around him and be told how good he is. He did some good things yesterday though, but throughout the season, too often I'm left thinking "how many times did he touch or even get the ball ?". It seems we're incapable of getting him in space, something that Saints wingers have the luxury of getting on a regular basis. If your 10/12 can manipulate a defence and create space, it's an easy game. With Pollard/Kata that's not our game.

In summary, put OHC in a team with Russell, Fin/Marcus Smith or Ford and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Watson....it just hasn't worked sadly. He had that X Factor.....had.

[sk 88]

Costelow only has 12 Welsh caps so unless he is going to stop his international career he won't be coming back anytime soon unless the WRU throw the towel in with the cap ruling.

Would like to know how hard we tried to persuade him to stay at Tigers.

3 games in the summer, 4 in Autumn, 5 in the 6N, then the 2025 summer tour. He could well be at 25 caps by July 2025.