LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Leicestertinytiger]

Munster’s Gavin Coombes is out of contract in 2025. Plays 8 or 6 and can cover lock, a bit like Hatherall. Could he be worth it?

What's he like over the ball? We need more breakdown threat across the pack. Our defence is not excellent when we can target the breakdown, slow the opposition down then go hard on defence and repeat. When the opposition can repeated phases of quick ball the momentum stops us going up hard in defence and we will give ground and eventually break. Can't keep having Reffell and Montoya being our only breakdown threats.

Not a bad shout.

Jack Conan we were linked to ages ago. Always wondered if he really wanted a starting spot for Ireland he should’ve left somewhere to be starting 8. Saying that he’s probably happy enough where he is.

Morgan Morris would be a great pick up. Basically test standard but never gets in the Wales squad. Out of contract this season too so I thought.

[RagingBull]

I mean if we are looking for a number 8/lock type I don't fully care about what they are like over the ball.
If we need more breakdown options then we need someone behind Reffell rather than with. You just need one main ball threat in the pack, as long as the rest of the pack can clear out the ruck.

It's a crying shame that neither Brink or MVS worked out because both off the bench would've been lethal in all 3 backrow positions.

[RagingBull]

On wing I honestly don't think there is a better winger in the league than OHC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR4Hi2t4pEY

I feel it's an us problem and any additional winger is just going to suffer the same issues.

Remember when we were linked with Rassie, Townsend, Chieka etc, and then many of us (it's fair to say) were slightly underwhelmed when DMK was announced? I wonder if the players felt similarly disappointed?

Just a thought.

Doubt it I feel fans project their feelings too much on professionals.

[sam16111986]

I mean if we are looking for a number 8/lock type I don't fully care about what they are like over the ball.
If we need more breakdown options then we need someone behind Reffell rather than with. You just need one main ball threat in the pack, as long as the rest of the pack can clear out the ruck.

It's a crying shame that neither Brink or MVS worked out because both off the bench would've been lethal in all 3 backrow positions.

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

[RagingBull]

I mean if we are looking for a number 8/lock type I don't fully care about what they are like over the ball.
If we need more breakdown options then we need someone behind Reffell rather than with. You just need one main ball threat in the pack, as long as the rest of the pack can clear out the ruck.

It's a crying shame that neither Brink or MVS worked out because both off the bench would've been lethal in all 3 backrow positions.

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

Interesting because the feelings I have seen in Ireland is they feel they have missed a true breakdown specialist. Bernie is prob their main one, they have a lot of very good breakdown attackers but nothing to the standard of say Reffell.
I don't disagree if you got multiple threats it better, but I would prioritise attack play over breakdown work whilst we have a Reffell in the team, we just need someone who can come on and match that ability when Tommy isn't there.

Cause who are you replacing in our current starting pack to give us the extra breakdown option?

[DeadlyDunc]

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

I just think the recruitment of the replacements both starters and bench these last few years has been pretty poor - maybe due to the cost and cap restrictions.

I'd forgot about Brink but mentioned MVS and then you think back to the SB championship team and as of the end of this season we'll have lost Nadolo, Potter, Porter, Wiggs, Genge, Ford, Burns, Ashton, Moroni, Green, Wiese, Nephi, Scott etc

I'd argue Pollard (Ford); Cronin (Nephi); and OHC (Ashton) are arguably of a level to these but the rest have, to date, been downgrades and in some cases by some distance.

I fully accept that some of this is dictated by salary cap and some of the homegrown talent getting increases but IMO we have a worse squad than before. Our first XV isn't bad at all (when fit!) but the depth and quality off the bench is pretty weak by comparison to the SB winning year IMO

[sam16111986]

I mean if we are looking for a number 8/lock type I don't fully care about what they are like over the ball.
If we need more breakdown options then we need someone behind Reffell rather than with. You just need one main ball threat in the pack, as long as the rest of the pack can clear out the ruck.

It's a crying shame that neither Brink or MVS worked out because both off the bench would've been lethal in all 3 backrow positions.

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

Interesting because the feelings I have seen in Ireland is they feel they have missed a true breakdown specialist. Bernie is prob their main one, they have a lot of very good breakdown attackers but nothing to the standard of say Reffell.
I don't disagree if you got multiple threats it better, but I would prioritise attack play over breakdown work whilst we have a Reffell in the team, we just need someone who can come on and match that ability when Tommy isn't there.

Cause who are you replacing in our current starting pack to give us the extra breakdown option?

We've got big ball carriers, we are unlikely to get hold of an explosive Weise replacement hence we've gone for Beets. In the knowledge there's no like for like let's see if we can get a big guy that can go after the breakdown. You've got to make compromises somewhere admittedly.

Yeah Ireland have got a lot of players that are decent at the breakdown but they are lacking a particular standout. Works for them though I'm sure they'd like a Reffell type nightmare as another option. A Will Connors style flanker might not be the ideal for Leinster/Ireland as he's another big lad that can be a threat to the breakdown but someone like that would be ideal for us.

I'd be sacrificing the lock/8 cover. Hatherall to provide that. Liebenburg might have to play a bit more 8 as well.

Unless we are super confident that Ilione or Josh Manz are going to come through as an answer for this.

[sapajo]

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

I just think the recruitment of the replacements both starters and bench these last few years has been pretty poor - maybe due to the cost and cap restrictions.

I'd forgot about Brink but mentioned MVS and then you think back to the SB championship team and as of the end of this season we'll have lost Nadolo, Potter, Porter, Wiggs, Genge, Ford, Burns, Ashton, Moroni, Green, Wiese, Nephi, Scott etc

I'd argue Pollard (Ford); Cronin (Nephi); and OHC (Ashton) are arguably of a level to these but the rest have, to date, been downgrades and in some cases by some distance.

I fully accept that some of this is dictated by salary cap and some of the homegrown talent getting increases but IMO we have a worse squad than before. Our first XV isn't bad at all (when fit!) but the depth and quality off the bench is pretty weak by comparison to the SB winning year IMO

Agree with this post! So now despite an uplift in the salary cap we have a worse squad than before and that I simply cannot understand how and why this has happened?

With this in mind it will take a miracle to expect better performances from what is in my opinion a much weaker squad.

[GB72]

I disagree. If you've got multiple threats in the pack it becomes very difficult for the opposition to target your breakdown threat and mark them on game. The Irish national team being a great example of this where so many of them are great over the ball but also physical on both sides of the ball. Makes them so hard to play against because you have to commit bodies to every breakdown and it's hard to get momentum.

I do agree on Brink and MVS though. Really liked both of them as signings. I thought Cracknell was a great Brink replacement pre injury, seems off the pace now though sadly.

I just think the recruitment of the replacements both starters and bench these last few years has been pretty poor - maybe due to the cost and cap restrictions.

I'd forgot about Brink but mentioned MVS and then you think back to the SB championship team and as of the end of this season we'll have lost Nadolo, Potter, Porter, Wiggs, Genge, Ford, Burns, Ashton, Moroni, Green, Wiese, Nephi, Scott etc

I'd argue Pollard (Ford); Cronin (Nephi); and OHC (Ashton) are arguably of a level to these but the rest have, to date, been downgrades and in some cases by some distance.

I fully accept that some of this is dictated by salary cap and some of the homegrown talent getting increases but IMO we have a worse squad than before. Our first XV isn't bad at all (when fit!) but the depth and quality off the bench is pretty weak by comparison to the SB winning year IMO

Agree with this post! So now despite an uplift in the salary cap we have a worse squad than before and that I simply cannot understand how and why this has happened?

With this in mind it will take a miracle to expect better performances from what is in my opinion a much weaker squad.

I think a chunk of that will come down to the success of our academy graduates who were yet to make the international breakthrough 2 years ago. Their salaries are going to be massively higher now. Porter would have also probably had a similar uplift once he became a full international, Kelly as well. I think we got Montoya and Weisse relatively cheaply at first as well. Their salaries would have rocketed at the last negotiation. Whether value or not, Pollard may be more expensive than Ford was. You also have the issue that is Watson. Who knows if the England payment only helped last year and now we have to pay the full contract price.

Wage inflation in the team is going to be pretty high

[RagingBull]

I guess you also got to factor in how much the likes of
Dolly, Heyes, Martin, Chessum, Henderson, Reffell, JVP, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward was on then compared to their next contract renewal. That's 11 players who where on basically their first professional contract still at the time who became basically members of the first team 23 at the time of renewal.

[Leicestertinytiger]

On wing I honestly don't think there is a better winger in the league than OHC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR4Hi2t4pEY

I feel it's an us problem and any additional winger is just going to suffer the same issues.

Remember when we were linked with Rassie, Townsend, Chieka etc, and then many of us (it's fair to say) were slightly underwhelmed when DMK was announced? I wonder if the players felt similarly disappointed?

Just a thought.

Doubt it I feel fans project their feelings too much on professionals.

I agree and it comes down to us having no functioning attack. Next season our backline will be:

9. JVP 10. Pollard 11. OHC 12. Kelly 13. Perese 14. Simmons 15. Steward 21. Youngs 22. Shilcock 23. Kata

We’ll still have Wilkinson, Watson, Bassett, Brown in the squad. All of the above are quality players. We’re literally desperate for some sort of attacking structure because I’ve no doubt these players would thrive in even half a decent system.

So I don’t think you can even blame the recruitment in the backline when you actually look at the players available.

[ay2oh]

OHC is a quality player but his confidence is shot. At Irish he got plenty of ball and didn’t spend most of his time chasing kicks and clearing rucks. He needs an arm round his shoulder and some reassurance that we will play to his strengths once , if ever, we get a decent attack coach. He needs to play off the cuff but I’m not sure that McKellar allows him that freedom and has him playing to a strict plan. Just hope OHC doesn’t get p****d off and leave.

[CrumblingTerrace]

I agree - we have talented, international players in our backline. But we have a malfunctioning system.

Our double WC winner barely makes an imprint on games.

Kelly and OHC have gone from international recognition to a prolonged struggle for form.

The master of the skies, Fred, has lost his Eng place.

And outside of the Prem Cup, not a single young player has even made the bench (the nearly 23yo Cokanasiga is the closest to 'young').

I believe we have the talent, but we are not organised in a way to get the most from them.

[DeadlyDunc]

I agree - we have talented, international players in our backline. But we have a malfunctioning system.

Our double WC winner barely makes an imprint on games.

Kelly and OHC have gone from international recognition to a prolonged struggle for form.

The master of the skies, Fred, has lost his Eng place.

And outside of the Prem Cup, not a single young player has even made the bench (the nearly 23yo Cokanasiga is the closest to 'young').

I believe we have the talent, but we are not organised in a way to get the most from them.

Carnduff started on saturday?

Ref. the slightly earlier posts - I noted and accept that players will have wage increases but the cap goes up this season & the combined wage of those players listed that have left -

Dolly, Brink, MVS, Nadolo, Potter, Porter, Wiggs, Genge, Ford, Burns, Ashton, Moroni, Gopperth, Muri, Green, Wiese, Taute, Nephi, Hegarty, Socino, Scott etc -

can't be as much as the players we've brought in unless Handre is on so much he swallows up 5-6 players equivalent.

As far as I can tell - of the players we've signed, we are retaining

Rogerson, Cracknell, Bassett, Shillcock, FTT, Kata, Hatherall, Brown, Whiteley, Watson, Cronin, OHC, Pollard, Wilkinson, Beets, Smith, Perese;

the rest have come and gone (or will be this summer) and if so - i have probably missed a few - surely they can't be combined more than that list of leavers.

Even if, combined with increases for Martin, Chessum, Steward, JVP etc, it is then the underlying point remains that we have less players and we have (on evidence to date) a lower quality as well.

Which is not a great combination!

[Tigris]

I agree - we have talented, international players in our backline. But we have a malfunctioning system.

Our double WC winner barely makes an imprint on games.

Kelly and OHC have gone from international recognition to a prolonged struggle for form.

The master of the skies, Fred, has lost his Eng place.

And outside of the Prem Cup, not a single young player has even made the bench (the nearly 23yo Cokanasiga is the closest to 'young').

I believe we have the talent, but we are not organised in a way to get the most from them.

Agree with most of this, but Carnduff, Ilione and Vanes have all been involved in Europe and/or Prem (not a lot to be fair).