LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[4071]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

No one.

Literally no one would have advocated for a box kick.

Perhaps a different player would have got flack instead in your scenario, but no one would have said that it was a mistake not to have kicked away possession with a couple of minutes to go and the momentum with the opposition.

[Tiglon]

I think many people underestimate how difficult it is to keep the ball for 3 minutes in those circumstances without infringing or making an error.

I'm curious, how early would people advocate "sticking it up the jumper" for when defending a slim lead? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? How early do you abandon the plan and stop trying to play?

I would be shocked if, in 2024, the coaches were not fully aware of the statistics of how long a team is likely to be able to hold onto the ball for in these situations. I'd guess that attempting 3 minutes of up the jumper isn't likely to have a positive outcome, but I may be wrong.

Personally, I think that by focusing on one moment in the match we miss the point a little. There are plenty of other factors that led to us losing the match and to focus on one and blame one person for one action is very, very harsh and completely counter-productive.

[Old Hob]

I have said this on a different thread (or earlier on this burble burble) but this habit of knocking back kicks in broken play seems to me to be a very high risk tactic. If, on kick off, the kick goes behind the front defenders, then the knock back is as likely to end up in their hands as ours. If a pair of players practiced such a manoeuvre I would feel more comfortable - Freddie taps to O H-C for example and they operate as a twosome tied at the waist.

[speedski]

I think many people underestimate how difficult it is to keep the ball for 3 minutes in those circumstances without infringing or making an error.

I'm curious, how early would people advocate "sticking it up the jumper" for when defending a slim lead? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? How early do you abandon the plan and stop trying to play?

I would be shocked if, in 2024, the coaches were not fully aware of the statistics of how long a team is likely to be able to hold onto the ball for in these situations. I'd guess that attempting 3 minutes of up the jumper isn't likely to have a positive outcome, but I may be wrong.

Personally, I think that by focusing on one moment in the match we miss the point a little. There are plenty of other factors that led to us losing the match and to focus on one and blame one person for one action is very, very harsh and completely counter-productive.

I think you have to take the last 20 in context as a whole.

Lost a player.
Shipped 14 points in 18 minutes.
Stick it up the jumper.

We have a pack and a skill set to do it, two minutes out should be easy enough for a skilled side.

But what you cannot, and should not do, is voluntarily risk the other team, with huge momentum and faster, more rested subs, run back at you in open play.

We used to be very well know for grinding out a result - now we’re becoming quite well know for being beatable in the last 20 even when +10 points.

[speedski]

It’s also not one moment, one player, one game.

It’s one player, two moments, two games, both identical scenarios in the same short season.

The only difference is we lost this game - but we arguably deserved to lose both.

It’s the lack of learning that’s so indefensible

[TigerFeetSteve]

https://twitter.com/connachtrugby/statu ... yLgKA&s=19

This signing makes the move for Kelly from Munster less likely (at least for one season)

O'Conor is likely replacing Tom Farrell who was linked (along with Kelly) as one of the options for replacing Frisch.

[RagingBull]

https://archive.ph/yzQ2e

This has big implications on the squad espcially given the supposed squad limits

[TigerFeetSteve]

https://archive.ph/yzQ2e

This has big implications on the squad espcially given the supposed squad limits

Indeed!

Interesting to note how England will have a say on centrally contracted players training, for example if Borthwick wants Chessum to play 6 not lock because he wants Martin, Chessum and Itoje all in the same team.

I wonder about what happened in the Newcastle game where to stop the scrum penalties we moved Carnduff to the flank and Wiese to lock... imagine Chessum is at 6. How long do we wait if conceding pens to move him to the row?

[sam16111986]

https://twitter.com/connachtrugby/statu ... yLgKA&s=19

This signing makes the move for Kelly from Munster less likely (at least for one season)

O'Conor is likely replacing Tom Farrell who was linked (along with Kelly) as one of the options for replacing Frisch.

The French clubs appear to be unhappy with the amount of transfer fee Munster want for Frisch. Which is good news for Tigers as the less Munster get the less they have to try and prise away DK.

Tom Farrell to Munster makes more sense. Munster have been making losses so there's always the fact they might just pocket the difference in salary and transfer fee to help with budgeting.

[LE18]

I think many people underestimate how difficult it is to keep the ball for 3 minutes in those circumstances without infringing or making an error.

I'm curious, how early would people advocate "sticking it up the jumper" for when defending a slim lead? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? How early do you abandon the plan and stop trying to play?

I would be shocked if, in 2024, the coaches were not fully aware of the statistics of how long a team is likely to be able to hold onto the ball for in these situations. I'd guess that attempting 3 minutes of up the jumper isn't likely to have a positive outcome, but I may be wrong.

Personally, I think that by focusing on one moment in the match we miss the point a little. There are plenty of other factors that led to us losing the match and to focus on one and blame one person for one action is very, very harsh and completely counter-productive.

What do the statistics say about 15 players given the ball v 14 tired men without it, I bet they forecast a try is likely to be scored, so why give it them?.

[Tiglon]

I think many people underestimate how difficult it is to keep the ball for 3 minutes in those circumstances without infringing or making an error.

I'm curious, how early would people advocate "sticking it up the jumper" for when defending a slim lead? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? How early do you abandon the plan and stop trying to play?

I would be shocked if, in 2024, the coaches were not fully aware of the statistics of how long a team is likely to be able to hold onto the ball for in these situations. I'd guess that attempting 3 minutes of up the jumper isn't likely to have a positive outcome, but I may be wrong.

Personally, I think that by focusing on one moment in the match we miss the point a little. There are plenty of other factors that led to us losing the match and to focus on one and blame one person for one action is very, very harsh and completely counter-productive.

What do the statistics say about 15 players given the ball v 14 tired men without it, I bet they forecast a try is likely to be scored, so why give it them?.

They probably suggest that it's even harder to keep hold of the ball for that long...

[Tiglon]

https://archive.ph/yzQ2e

This has big implications on the squad espcially given the supposed squad limits

Indeed!

Interesting to note how England will have a say on centrally contracted players training, for example if Borthwick wants Chessum to play 6 not lock because he wants Martin, Chessum and Itoje all in the same team.

I wonder about what happened in the Newcastle game where to stop the scrum penalties we moved Carnduff to the flank and Wiese to lock... imagine Chessum is at 6. How long do we wait if conceding pens to move him to the row?

It's a bit vague about how much control will be given, "strength, conditioning and skills development programmes" gives a lot of leeway.

The really positive thing is the enhanced funding for the clubs, although from the article I'm struggling to calculate how much better off clubs will be overall.

[RagingBull]

Also the potential squad limit changes will be very big

[Tiglon]

Also the potential squad limit changes will be very big

I didn't see any mention of that in the article? Do we know any details?

[ABClub]

Have you heard much on the limits RB? The variance I've heard in rumours is pretty hefty. With the senior academy limits seeming low to me.

By my reckoning for next season:

1.Smith, Cronin, Whitcombe
2.Montoya, Clare
3.Cole, Heyes, Hurd
4.Martin, Wells
5.Chessum, Henderson
6.Hanro, Cracknell
7.Reffell (Might Ilione be above the £50k limit?)
8.Hatherell, Rogerson, Beets

9.JvP, Youngs, Whiteley
10.Pollard, Shillock, Wilkinson

11.OHC, Simmons
12.Kelly, Kata
13.Perese
14.Watson, Bassett
15.Steward, Brown

33 senior squad players confirmed, maybe 34 if Ilione is senior squad by the cap rules.

Then:

Prop - Hoyt, AvdF, Miell, Mountford (Seb Smith still?)
Hooker - Vanes, FTT
Lock - L Chess, T Manz, Thomas
Back row - (Ilione), Carnduff, J Manz, Bedall, Williams, Perkins
SH - Allan
FH - Daniels
Centre - Woodward, Myall, Davies
Back three - Gourlay, Satala, Kinder

21 or 22 senior academy by my reckoning? That's well over the academy limits I've heard rumoured though.

The heavy weighting at centre there is interesting. Woodward should be ready for game time next season I'd say.

van der Flier has been doing well in the Championship already. Hoyt and L Chess have lost full seasons to injury at vital times in development though. Vanes, FTT and Carnduff have already looked ready this season. Whilst T Manz will be in his final season in the academy cap. It feels more forwards are looking on that verge of stepping up.