LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[TigerFeetSteve]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley, Edwards
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

Interesting you've listed Porter as staying and Scott going now, you got a whisper there Elliott?

[AViewFromLe2]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley, Edwards
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

Do we know whether Watson is signed on for next year. Bearing in mind that we needed the England deal over the World Cup to fit him in the cap this year, I cannot see him getting a hybrid contract or us wanting to pay his full salary to keep him next year. Maybe he had a 2 year hybrid contract with England. No idea.

There is a Daily Mail article from when we re-announced Watson saying he was contracted up until the end of 24/25. I appreciate it is the DM, but Chris Foy is a decent rugby writer and usually pretty reliable for things Tigers related so I'm comfortable to believe that we gave Watson an 18 month deal.

[AViewFromLe2]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley, Edwards
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

Interesting you've listed Porter as staying and Scott going now, you got a whisper there Elliott?

No whispers, and it may have been a mistake including Porter. However the thought process was that Fissler has recently linked Scott with a move away, whilst the noise around Porter leaving has died down. So for now, i have included him, however felt it best to leave him in 2nd choice. Possibly a mistake, but as a guide, i think it's allowable.

[GB72]

With the signings and departures, the squad is starting to come together a bit more. Appreciate the below isn't the full squad, and no doubt i will have left names off from the Development Group. But the below is a fairly realistic guide to who's going to be in the first team mix next season.

Appreciate others will have different ideas on first or second pick etc, but it is a useful guide all the same. Again, appreciate others play other positions, with plenty being versatile players so we have more flexibility than just a straight pick. And players may leave from the below etc.

However with those caveats in mind, the below looks a pretty decent squad for next season and it does have a lot of bases covered. For me, we are just a heavy lock and another winger away from completing our recruitment. Throw in a Joe Batley or Elliott Stooke or another contender, and for example a Joe Cokanasiga and then i think our recruitment would be done.

For me, the biggest thing would be the attack coach. Throw a decent attack coach into what we have, and with that group below and I think we're right up there.

LH - Smith, Whitcombe, Cronin, Van Der Flier
Hooker - Montoya, Clare, Dolly, FTT, Vanes
TH - Cole, Heyes, Hurd, Hoyt
Lock (lineout)- Chessum, Henderson, Chessum Jnr
Lock (enforcer) - Martin, Wells
Blindside - Liebenberg, Rogerson, Carnduff
Openside - Reffell, Cracknell, Illione, Josh Manz
8 - Hatherall, Beets, Koriyadi
9 - JvP, Lenny, Whiteley, Edwards
10 - Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
11 - OHC, Simmons
12 - Kelly, Kata, Phil C, Woodward
13 - Perese, Porter, Cuisick
14 - Watson, Bassett
15 - Steward, Brown, Gourlay

Do we know whether Watson is signed on for next year. Bearing in mind that we needed the England deal over the World Cup to fit him in the cap this year, I cannot see him getting a hybrid contract or us wanting to pay his full salary to keep him next year. Maybe he had a 2 year hybrid contract with England. No idea.

There is a Daily Mail article from when we re-announced Watson saying he was contracted up until the end of 24/25. I appreciate it is the DM, but Chris Foy is a decent rugby writer and usually pretty reliable for things Tigers related so I'm comfortable to believe that we gave Watson an 18 month deal.

Sounds fair enough. My only concern with that (and hindsight is a wonderful thing) would be if we had applied a chunk of the cap increase next year to cover what we did not have room to pay Watson last year and that was covered by England. At the moment, and we all hope it is not the case, that would not seem like good business.

[sk 88]

I do understand the frustration and a lot of it is fairly reasonable. That said, I do think we have been unlucky. Last year was unprecedented in terms of losing a coaching team mid-season like that. Also unlucky in that Pollard gets injured a matter of days before the SF. I do think if he plays, we win that & then we're into the final & i'd have fancied us against Sarries at that point.

This year it has been made tougher with so many at the WC and the attack coach situation. We are unlucky that the Dickens thing has happened - it has happened to us rather than us doing something wrong. I appreciate people may not like it, but those mitigations are real and have to be factored in.

We are ultimately in the results business though, and if the results are not there then tough questions are rightly asked. I can live with the problems this season, given the mitigations in play. Next season will be different and the pressure will be on McKellar to deliver, certainly my personal expectations will higher.

I agree. Look at each season in isolation and everything appears reasonable given the circumstances. Especially this season being new coach and WC year.

But look at everything since 2020 and I’m starting to not actually care about the behind the scenes machinations for next season. I just want to see good players, playing some good rugby and getting some good results. This starts with having a good enough squad for next season. As it stands it’s looking a bit iffy in comparison to other clubs. Especially when you look at their strength in depth 4-8.

I think our squad overall is looking pretty for next season, though i do think a couple more signings will get us to where we need to be. I just think if we get the attack coach situation sorted, then that will drive the biggest improvements for us.

We have lost two games we should have won - Quins at home and Gloucester last week - we threw it away due to our own errors. Nail those and we're in the top 2 and looking pretty, even without an attack coach, which we all know is holding us back.

If the club can land the attack coach, then i do genuinely think we will see good rugby and good results next season.

By the same token we won two games we should have lost on the last kick. Lose those two & we'd be below Sale and totally dead for the play offs.

We're getting too focused on results, when the best bit of the Borthwick mind set was focusing on improving the performance each week, and the results will look after themselves overall.

[AViewFromLe2]

I agree. Look at each season in isolation and everything appears reasonable given the circumstances. Especially this season being new coach and WC year.

But look at everything since 2020 and I’m starting to not actually care about the behind the scenes machinations for next season. I just want to see good players, playing some good rugby and getting some good results. This starts with having a good enough squad for next season. As it stands it’s looking a bit iffy in comparison to other clubs. Especially when you look at their strength in depth 4-8.

I think our squad overall is looking pretty for next season, though i do think a couple more signings will get us to where we need to be. I just think if we get the attack coach situation sorted, then that will drive the biggest improvements for us.

We have lost two games we should have won - Quins at home and Gloucester last week - we threw it away due to our own errors. Nail those and we're in the top 2 and looking pretty, even without an attack coach, which we all know is holding us back.

If the club can land the attack coach, then i do genuinely think we will see good rugby and good results next season.

By the same token we won two games we should have lost on the last kick. Lose those two & we'd be below Sale and totally dead for the play offs.

We're getting too focused on results, when the best bit of the Borthwick mind set was focusing on improving the performance each week, and the results will look after themselves overall.

I get that, and equally I enjoyed that aspect of Borthwick's tenure. At the same point, when myself or others have pointed out the positives, even from defeats, we are very much told "that's great, we still lost, it's a results industry."

By the same token, McKellar is also like Borthwick in that he talks about improving the performance first and by all accounts has a similar methodology to Borthwick in that regard with the players. The difference is that he doesn't hammer that point in every pre or post match interview like Steve did. Not saying that was a bad thing from Steve either, but just because it is not said as much publicly doesn't mean it is not being used still.

[Stephen18]

I think our squad overall is looking pretty for next season, though i do think a couple more signings will get us to where we need to be. I just think if we get the attack coach situation sorted, then that will drive the biggest improvements for us.

We have lost two games we should have won - Quins at home and Gloucester last week - we threw it away due to our own errors. Nail those and we're in the top 2 and looking pretty, even without an attack coach, which we all know is holding us back.

If the club can land the attack coach, then i do genuinely think we will see good rugby and good results next season.

By the same token we won two games we should have lost on the last kick. Lose those two & we'd be below Sale and totally dead for the play offs.

We're getting too focused on results, when the best bit of the Borthwick mind set was focusing on improving the performance each week, and the results will look after themselves overall.

I get that, and equally I enjoyed that aspect of Borthwick's tenure. At the same point, when myself or others have pointed out the positives, even from defeats, we are very much told "that's great, we still lost, it's a results industry."

By the same token, McKellar is also like Borthwick in that he talks about improving the performance first and by all accounts has a similar methodology to Borthwick in that regard with the players. The difference is that he doesn't hammer that point in every pre or post match interview like Steve did. Not saying that was a bad thing from Steve either, but just because it is not said as much publicly doesn't mean it is not being used still.

I think the difference is that fans had lower there expectations by the Borthwick era, the 2 seasons before we’d finished 2nd from bottom with the last game, and been save from relegation by sarries points deduction. So he was given a free hit, so he was able to take it one game at a time he also bought through a lot of young players, which eventually lead to success. Unfortunately McKeller hasn’t been given that, even though there has been a complete coaching overhaul and the attacking coach issues, he also has Steve’s team and he’s signing, but he’s still been expected to win and there has been a lot of talk from both himself and the club about winning trophies and play off, which has added to the pressure on him. Personally in hindsight probably would have preferred a free hit season see if he could alter the way we play, bring some more academy players in and get a true idea of what he needs to recruit for his side and start a rebuild. Which might have put us a head of Saracens, sale, and Northampton who will probably start a rebuild themselves next year.

[Tiglon]

People talk about Borthwick bringing through young players and McKellar not.

It's really not that simple - when Borthwick was here there were a few really good youngsters emerging. Steward, JvP, O Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Heyes. 4 or 5 of those are now bordering on world class.

The current crop of youngsters just doesn't compare. Carnduff was very impressive when given the chance and I'd love to see more of him, but L Chessum, Ilione, Edwards etc are simply not there yet. Ok, most of us would like to see a bit more of Ilione too, but based on what we've seen he's not even close to pushing for that starting 7 jersey.

[mightymouse]

I’m curious about Chessum Jnr and why he wasn’t picked above Carter in the cup. Last year he was as impressive if not more so that Carnduff in this years Under 20s 6 nations.
So where has he been since? Is he injured?
Harlequins brought Cunningham-South ( who played in that same team and was argot as good) through their ranks and on into England.
Is it that Lewis hasn’t progressed, or is he injured OR is it a different mind set by McKeller vs Borthwick. Is he more like our prior coaches who preferred Old Aussie Journeyman to bringing through young talent like Steve did. Is it his way,

[TigerFeetSteve]

I’m curious about Chessum Jnr and why he wasn’t picked above Carter in the cup. Last year he was as impressive if not more so that Carnduff in this years Under 20s 6 nations.
So where has he been since? Is he injured?
Harlequins brought Cunningham-South ( who played in that same team and was argot as good) through their ranks and on into England.
Is it that Lewis hasn’t progressed, or is he injured OR is it a different mind set by McKeller vs Borthwick. Is he more like our prior coaches who preferred Old Aussie Journeyman to bringing through young talent like Steve did. Is it his way,

Lewis Chessum has not even played on loan in months so I think it's pretty certain that he's injured.

Edit: last game he played was 24th November on loan in Nat 1 for Leicester Lions.
https://twitter.com/LeicsLionsRFC/statu ... N7A2g&s=19

[mightymouse]

That might explain things then .. thanks for that .. I certainly thought he looked like he was good enough to make that step up, and was surprised he never made an appearance all season.

[johnthegriff]

Most of the young players now in our team were brought through in the Murphy era as was Ben White and Sam Costello both now internationals.
We must continue to progress our young players with the addition of a few possibly foreign stars to fill.the gaps and bring quality and experience to the team.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

I’m curious about Chessum Jnr and why he wasn’t picked above Carter in the cup. Last year he was as impressive if not more so that Carnduff in this years Under 20s 6 nations.
So where has he been since? Is he injured?
Harlequins brought Cunningham-South ( who played in that same team and was argot as good) through their ranks and on into England.
Is it that Lewis hasn’t progressed, or is he injured OR is it a different mind set by McKeller vs Borthwick. Is he more like our prior coaches who preferred Old Aussie Journeyman to bringing through young talent like Steve did. Is it his way,

Lewis Chessum has not even played on loan in months so I think it's pretty certain that he's injured.

Edit: last game he played was 24th November on loan in Nat 1 for Leicester Lions.
https://twitter.com/LeicsLionsRFC/statu ... N7A2g&s=19

He was also reported of acting the "Big I am" in one of the games he played for the Lions.
You could argue in Rogerson & Cracknell we have 2 English Journeymen, our 3rd choice 9 certainly is.

[sk 88]

I’m curious about Chessum Jnr and why he wasn’t picked above Carter in the cup. Last year he was as impressive if not more so that Carnduff in this years Under 20s 6 nations.
So where has he been since? Is he injured?
Harlequins brought Cunningham-South ( who played in that same team and was argot as good) through their ranks and on into England.
Is it that Lewis hasn’t progressed, or is he injured OR is it a different mind set by McKeller vs Borthwick. Is he more like our prior coaches who preferred Old Aussie Journeyman to bringing through young talent like Steve did. Is it his way,

Lewis Chessum has not even played on loan in months so I think it's pretty certain that he's injured.

Edit: last game he played was 24th November on loan in Nat 1 for Leicester Lions.
https://twitter.com/LeicsLionsRFC/statu ... N7A2g&s=19

Someone on Twitter told me he had a nerve issue in his shoulder, so was injured.

[johnthegriff]

I hope it is a shoulder injury, I was concerned it might be linked to the leg injury he had whilst still at Brooksby.
I doubt that Lewis was coming the big I am at Lions but he had been playing as captain for the Under 20's and maybe leadership was being misinterpreted. Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.