LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[No6_Flanker]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

[longlivethecrumbie]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

Come, come now - stop being sensible and rational. You know that's not the way of things on here!

[sapajo]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

If if and ands were pots and pans. He could have done lots of things but the fact is he decided to kick the ball away to the opposition with a mere 2 mins to victory left on the clock. That is not scapegoating it's a fact and it undoubtedly and ultimately cost us the match.

[sam16111986]

Wasn’t Whiteley decent in earlier games ? Seems like he’s copping the flack for a collective effort ?

He's been average to date. His commitment in defence is his main plus point. The choice and execution of the box kick at the end was very poor and unnecessary. He's copping the flack for people's frustrations but it is sort of his own doing.

AS you have all responded to my comment I think I should also respond and say Sam has put it precisely, I dont remember him being any more than average in his earlier games, he has made this same kicking decision late on in at least 2 or 3 games now, is that really the game plan? If so its ridiculous, keep the ball at all times dont go giving it away especially when a man short, its time the coaches got to understand that and moreso the players who have been fighting like mad to win the ball. Didnt I read somewhere where players could choose to change the play if need be, probably another club, but any captain with half decent experience would want to hang on to it. But thats another question, where was our Captain he had been substitited, too early in my opionion, along with others who could have lasted longer and not made it off the pitch just because the clock said times up.
Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?
Once Montoya went off, was Pollard Captain, someone should have taken Whitley to one side.
I just wonder what those players who had fought their hearts out thought of all that, gutted im sure.
Not a lot left to play for now after that result, guess we will be seeing the "extras" in the remaining matches.
And finally yes my season ticket is already being paid for, just a very frustrated reaction to a game we gave away.

I don't like the fact he took flack from some fans, who'd probably had a spot to much hydration. He is however, 28 so not really young.

[LE18]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

I am not going to continue commenting on this as I dont know the full facts, only what I saw from my seat in the stand, fans frustrations were running high.

[Ian Cant]

Cockerill always said after any defeat,” Blame me not the players as I chose the team and made the changes.”
Did DMK falsely think the game was won! George Martin looked upset o come off and Cole and Cronin could have gone a lot deeper. JVP looked very tired but he has had such a long lay off.
Again, if I’d been replaced too early I’d be fuming.
Lastly, like all teams I a bad run of for the ball doesn’t bounce well and the refs decisions don’t go for you either.
Now it’s time for the fans to rally round the team. I couldn’t fault the effort yesterday as couldn’t all the fans round us! I’m hopeful DM with the right coaches can turn things round but I’d like him to also start believing we can win games: at the moment I feel his earlier negative vibes, comments in both Gloucester games,
Leinster and Saints do little to suggest he believes in the players.
We can beat Sale and we can beat Sale with for one an 80 minute, disciplined performance. Sale here we come!

[TigerFeetSteve]

I like Kata as a 12 tbh would’ve allowed Porter to stay on the wing which was is my preferred position for him tbh, I would’ve had Kata in for Socino and Taute combined wage.
Shillcock def over Hegarty
Cracknell v Jansen is close
Brown over Murimurivalu
,

Honestly Pollard is on par with Ford imo, but Ford I feel is a better on field coach.

I may be misremembering the details (as he was injured so long) but didn't Socino come in after Taute retired? At very least it was after he was injured long term and would have had injury dispensation for Socino

[westwinds31]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

Exactly this ^^

[RagingBull]

I like Kata as a 12 tbh would’ve allowed Porter to stay on the wing which was is my preferred position for him tbh, I would’ve had Kata in for Socino and Taute combined wage.
Shillcock def over Hegarty
Cracknell v Jansen is close
Brown over Murimurivalu
,

Honestly Pollard is on par with Ford imo, but Ford I feel is a better on field coach.

I may be misremembering the details (as he was injured so long) but didn't Socino come in after Taute retired? At very least it was after he was injured long term and would have had injury dispensation for Socino

Nope to either.
He was signed in June as a normal signing

[Hot_Charlie]

Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?

Presumably he came over to thank the fans for attending the game, copped an earful, and responded, as emotions were no doubt high? I don’t believe you’re suggesting that players should stay away from fans after a loss.

In another vein, say Whiteley doesn’t box kick it and we concede a penalty (and turnover) which eventually results in the winning score. How many people would then be advocating for a box kick? Hindsight is 20/20, and arguably Whiteley has become the scapegoat for a series of errors which resulted in the loss.

Whiteley is being picked on because he's not called JVP, Youngs or maybe worse after this week, Edwards. And he's an outsider, in relative terms.

The reality was as far as box kicks go, it was absolutely fine and we should have reclaimed it after Steward's tap back.

The other reality is that it showed some fans' true colours, which was disappointing.

[johnthegriff]

I think anybody that frequents this messageboard will.be aware that Ben Youngs does not escape unfair criticism just because he is one of our own. No both Youngs and Whitely receive over the top criticism because some fans are unfair.
We did not lose that game because of one kick, the kick was an option, and it could have worked, I agree watching from the stand it was not my preferred option. I first played rugby in the 50's I retired from playing in the 70's now having say in the Crumbie for many years and fast approaching my 80th birthday I am a better player than I ever was as now I never make rugby mistakes.
Those that abused our player for doing what they as lesser players or maybe they never even graced a pitch would have done differently should if possible be identified and banned.

[manxleigh]

No one deserves the level of abuse Whiteley has received. Criticism yes, but not abuse.

That said, the way to control the game is to have the ball. Stick it up the jumper and hold onto it. Statistically, I would have thought Bristol were far more likely to concede a penalty trying to get their hands on the ball, chasing a winning try, than we were looking after it. Even a sensible deep kick to the corner from the midfield was a better option as the return attack is more controllable than free open play ball.

I might be wrong of course.

[ABClub]

No one deserves the level of abuse Whiteley has received. Criticism yes, but not abuse.

That said, the way to control the game is to have the ball. Stick it up the jumper and hold onto it. Statistically, I would have thought Bristol were far more likely to concede a penalty trying to get their hands on the ball, chasing a winning try, than we were looking after it. Even a sensible deep kick to the corner from the midfield was a better option as the return attack is more controllable than free open play ball.

I might be wrong of course.

Refs tend to ping sealing insanely fast when teams run the clock down now. Which I like. It was happening far too much a few years ago. Teams would try to run in down from 2 or 3 minutes out. Basically stationary forward carries off 9, goes straight to deck at contact, 2 support players instantly seal. Rinse and repeat. It's a dismal way to end a close rugby match. If you try to go through more than few phases of clearly doing nothing but killing time, then refs go for the insta-pen these days.

The RWC quarters are interesting cases in point. Both the ABs and the Boks kicked it away at the end with the lead for that reason. Force the opposition to go from deep against a set defence. Rather than risk a pen that they can put deep in your half. They executed it well and won. Resulting in two incredible finishes.

It's on execution for me. Very similar in the Six Nations with England vs Ireland. Murray got so much flack for kicking it out, leading to the drop goal. I don't think it was the wrong call though. Just an uncharacteristically dismal box kick from Murray. He had a poor angle and just sort of poked it a bit up field. Instead of running one more phase from a forward pod, setting the chase and hammering one deep.

[sapajo]

I think anybody that frequents this messageboard will.be aware that Ben Youngs does not escape unfair criticism just because he is one of our own. No both Youngs and Whitely receive over the top criticism because some fans are unfair.
We did not lose that game because of one kick, the kick was an option, and it could have worked, I agree watching from the stand it was not my preferred option. I first played rugby in the 50's I retired from playing in the 70's now having say in the Crumbie for many years and fast approaching my 80th birthday I am a better player than I ever was as now I never make rugby mistakes.
Those that abused our player for doing what they as lesser players or maybe they never even graced a pitch would have done differently should if possible be identified and banned.

By the same token you cannot say we would still not have won despite the kick.

[jgriffin]

I though we lost it once we replaced the front row. The scrum started to go in reverse, Cronin had been tackling Genge all day, and while we had Bristol on their knees at 60 mins, we were out of it by 70. They brought on two fast guys in Lahiff and Thacker, both who like broken field.