LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Rugbygramps]

I hope it is a shoulder injury, I was concerned it might be linked to the leg injury he had whilst still at Brooksby.
I doubt that Lewis was coming the big I am at Lions but he had been playing as captain for the Under 20's and maybe leadership was being misinterpreted. Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.

Reported by someone who was present at the game as being in the face of the opposition asking if they knew who he was and how much he earned not sure how that can be misinterpreted.
Even when playing for England u20s he had a nasty side to him, late hits grabbing people off the ball, which needed reining in.

[sam16111986]

I hope it is a shoulder injury, I was concerned it might be linked to the leg injury he had whilst still at Brooksby.
I doubt that Lewis was coming the big I am at Lions but he had been playing as captain for the Under 20's and maybe leadership was being misinterpreted. Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.

Reported by someone who was present at the game as being in the face of the opposition asking if they knew who he was and how much he earned not sure how that can be misinterpreted.
Even when playing for England u20s he had a nasty side to him, late hits grabbing people off the ball, which needed reining in.

A bit of niggle/intimidation on the field from your big second row isn't a bad thing. He was good at being a nuisance and not getting pinged for the under 20s. I don't really have a problem with him saying those things to the opposition on the pitch, particularly if he backs them up with performance. Saying it to his teammates or in the clubhouse afterwards would be a concern.

[Rugbygramps]

I’m curious about Chessum Jnr and why he wasn’t picked above Carter in the cup. Last year he was as impressive if not more so that Carnduff in this years Under 20s 6 nations.
So where has he been since? Is he injured?
Harlequins brought Cunningham-South ( who played in that same team and was argot as good) through their ranks and on into England.
Is it that Lewis hasn’t progressed, or is he injured OR is it a different mind set by McKeller vs Borthwick. Is he more like our prior coaches who preferred Old Aussie Journeyman to bringing through young talent like Steve did. Is it his way,

Lewis Chessum has not even played on loan in months so I think it's pretty certain that he's injured.

Edit: last game he played was 24th November on loan in Nat 1 for Leicester Lions.
https://twitter.com/LeicsLionsRFC/statu ... N7A2g&s=19

He was also reported of acting the "Big I am" in one of the games he played for the Lions.
You could argue in Rogerson & Cracknell we have 2 English Journeymen, our 3rd choice 9 certainly is.

Name one Premiership side that doesn’t have at least one journeyman. Even Sarries had Judge, Tizard and Lewington playing on Saturday.

[Rugbygramps]

I hope it is a shoulder injury, I was concerned it might be linked to the leg injury he had whilst still at Brooksby.
I doubt that Lewis was coming the big I am at Lions but he had been playing as captain for the Under 20's and maybe leadership was being misinterpreted. Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.

Reported by someone who was present at the game as being in the face of the opposition asking if they knew who he was and how much he earned not sure how that can be misinterpreted.
Even when playing for England u20s he had a nasty side to him, late hits grabbing people off the ball, which needed reining in.

A bit of niggle/intimidation on the field from your big second row isn't a bad thing. He was good at being a nuisance and not getting pinged for the under 20s. I don't really have a problem with him saying those things to the opposition on the pitch, particularly if he backs them up with performance. Saying it to his teammates or in the clubhouse afterwards would be a concern.

Going to disagree even saying on the pitch his own teammates are going to hear it and all the opposition are going to think is this Ginger t**t can’t be that good if he’s playing us

[AViewFromLe2]

Lewis Chessum has been injured yeah, i think he has had to have surgery on the problem he had. Don't really see the issue with lads playing a Nat 1 level, especially if they are in the younger group of the Development Team. If that is their level, then it is much better to get them playing then have them here holding tackle bags and not playing. Indeed we should be getting more lads out on loan than we do. Nat 1 is a decent starting point for our younger players, indeed George Martin James Whitcombe and i think JVP all played for Leicester Lions.

Also not sure what the problem is with Rogerson, Cracknell or Whiteley. All three are perfect at what they are - good quality back up players, who do not command a high proportion of the salary cap. Indeed Rogerson was London Irish captain and was in Steve's thinking for the wider World Cup squad, hardly a mug.

I do not understand how some people still can't get that in a 40 man senior squad, with a salary cap, not every player is going to be a World Class International or superstar. We have to have decent back-ups, and all 3 offer decent value for money for the role they have for us. Appreciate this season is below par, but not everything has to be a major negative or crisis.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.

I think personally the collapse of the A league is hurting us (and others)

Championship teams (and Nat 1 & 2) can only take so many loanees that aren't training with them all week, we have no control over their signings who they are picking etc etc...

It also means that club members aren't playing regularly together...


I get why it was ended during the covid affected season, but it needs to be resumed IMO and soon. Especially in a world of only 10 teams where you can't rotate youngsters in as easily...

[Rugbygramps]

All the comments about giving youth a chance are imo correct, with the one caveat if they are good enough. The coaches see players on a daily basis and make decisions based on that, and will get crucified if they play someone who is just not good enough.

I think we need to look at some of our more established players and maybe stop picking on reputation. I agree with comments made about Harry Wells but with Martin rested and Carter gone who else is there. Reffell shouldn’t have been on the pitch he looked shattered, yes he scored a try, but other than that was anonymous. With us losing Wiese power game the balance of the backrow will be affected, do we need a better ball carrying 7 .
Yes Shilcock arguably cost us the game missed tackle for their try and missed goal kicks, I have some sympathy for him being called up late, starting and bench mind sets are different, also what’s his best position would Wilkinson have been worth the start,

[Rugbygramps]

Personally I am not happy with our Senior Academy being loaned to National 1 teams, I don't think that level is high enough.

I think personally the collapse of the A league is hurting us (and others)

Championship teams (and Nat 1 & 2) can only take so many loanees that aren't training with them all week, we have no control over their signings who they are picking etc etc...

It also means that club members aren't playing regularly together...


I get why it was ended during the covid affected season, but it needs to be resumed IMO and soon. Especially in a world of only 10 teams where you can't rotate youngsters in as easily...

Quite right and also each premiership club does tend to have a relationship with one championship club, ours being Nottingham.
Also agree with Elliott we were poor on Friday but it’s hardly crisis point. For whatever reason the team didn’t gel, same could be said of Quins and Saints. Yes with Pollard we would have won, but neither Wiese or Montoya were great but they are both slow starters after the break.
5 points v Falcons is key, and we may well not be far off fourth after this weekend

[AViewFromLe2]

People talk about Borthwick bringing through young players and McKellar not.

It's really not that simple - when Borthwick was here there were a few really good youngsters emerging. Steward, JvP, O Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Heyes. 4 or 5 of those are now bordering on world class.

The current crop of youngsters just doesn't compare. Carnduff was very impressive when given the chance and I'd love to see more of him, but L Chessum, Ilione, Edwards etc are simply not there yet. Ok, most of us would like to see a bit more of Ilione too, but based on what we've seen he's not even close to pushing for that starting 7 jersey.

I do agree, and i do normally default to the position of the coaches see more of them then i do. However IMO there are 3 that we have seen glimpses of at first team level and have impressed, yet not being rewarded with further first team action. At that point, it is transcending from trusting the coaches, to asking questions.

The 3 for me are James Whitcombe, Emeka Illione and Archie Vanes. Whitcombe should have had the Joe Heyes treatment of regular 20-30 minute appearances off the bench each week from week 1 of the season. I like Van Wyk and i do think he gets a bad press from fans, but it's a 50/50 call between him and Whitcombe for me, and Whitcombe should get the nod more. Indeed at Quins before the shutdown, he came off the bench and instantly steadied the ship. He's not been rewarded that much since.

Illione again has impressed from his brief cameos. At Irish last season he won a crucial turnover at a crucial point in the game. Came off the bench at home to Quins and within 30 seconds had won a turnover penalty, did the same away in Paris too. I don't think he should be a regular per se, but if Tommy is injured or needs a rest, we should be using him more. I'd rather start a natural jackler like Tommy or Emeka and have Cracknell on the bench if the jackal is not a threat.

Vanes played well in Paris. I know he got three tries, but take that away and he had a decent game overall anyway. Again he has not been rewarded with much game time since. Indeed we have chosen to flog Montoya for over 75 minutes regularly, instead of trusting Vanes or FTT from the bench, which seems pointless to me.

For me, Whitcombe should be more of a first team regular than he is, with Emeka and Archie used more than they have been, even if I don't think they are regulars, they have been vastly underused.

[Stephen18]

People talk about Borthwick bringing through young players and McKellar not.

It's really not that simple - when Borthwick was here there were a few really good youngsters emerging. Steward, JvP, O Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Heyes. 4 or 5 of those are now bordering on world class.

The current crop of youngsters just doesn't compare. Carnduff was very impressive when given the chance and I'd love to see more of him, but L Chessum, Ilione, Edwards etc are simply not there yet. Ok, most of us would like to see a bit more of Ilione too, but based on what we've seen he's not even close to pushing for that starting 7 jersey.

I do agree, and i do normally default to the position of the coaches see more of them then i do. However IMO there are 3 that we have seen glimpses of at first team level and have impressed, yet not being rewarded with further first team action. At that point, it is transcending from trusting the coaches, to asking questions.

The 3 for me are James Whitcombe, Emeka Illione and Archie Vanes. Whitcombe should have had the Joe Heyes treatment of regular 20-30 minute appearances off the bench each week from week 1 of the season. I like Van Wyk and i do think he gets a bad press from fans, but it's a 50/50 call between him and Whitcombe for me, and Whitcombe should get the nod more. Indeed at Quins before the shutdown, he came off the bench and instantly steadied the ship. He's not been rewarded that much since.

Illione again has impressed from his brief cameos. At Irish last season he won a crucial turnover at a crucial point in the game. Came off the bench at home to Quins and within 30 seconds had won a turnover penalty, did the same away in Paris too. I don't think he should be a regular per se, but if Tommy is injured or needs a rest, we should be using him more. I'd rather start a natural jackler like Tommy or Emeka and have Cracknell on the bench if the jackal is not a threat.

Vanes played well in Paris. I know he got three tries, but take that away and he had a decent game overall anyway. Again he has not been rewarded with much game time since. Indeed we have chosen to flog Montoya for over 75 minutes regularly, instead of trusting Vanes or FTT from the bench, which seems pointless to me.

For me, Whitcombe should be more of a first team regular than he is, with Emeka and Archie used more than they have been, even if I don't think they are regulars, they have been vastly underused.

I think there are a couple of other you could add to that I though Edwards looked good in the premiership cup now being locked at by Bristol should probably have gotten so minute with jvp out rather than Powell. Hurd, cokanasiga. Maybe even Cusick or Woodward when we had no wings. I’m not blaming mckellar solely for this I think it’s more proof the 10 team league doesn’t work as there aren’t enough games for coaches to give players a chance. Also what other academy player have we bought through on the last couple season before mckellar so I think there also a bit of a club mindset to look out before in. Also the clubs expectations as are the fans including myself to compete and win in all competitions because we have for the last few seasons, which Borthwick didn’t have as we were rock bottom when he came in. But for me even if some of them are bang average might not make it long term I’d rather give a 21/22 year old a shot like Carmichael or Manz over a bang average 30 year old who’ll also move on in 1/2 seasons, and the process starts all over again. And let’s face it we aren’t bath or Bristol and just go out and buy in a new team.

[Tiglon]

People talk about Borthwick bringing through young players and McKellar not.

It's really not that simple - when Borthwick was here there were a few really good youngsters emerging. Steward, JvP, O Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Heyes. 4 or 5 of those are now bordering on world class.

The current crop of youngsters just doesn't compare. Carnduff was very impressive when given the chance and I'd love to see more of him, but L Chessum, Ilione, Edwards etc are simply not there yet. Ok, most of us would like to see a bit more of Ilione too, but based on what we've seen he's not even close to pushing for that starting 7 jersey.

I do agree, and i do normally default to the position of the coaches see more of them then i do. However IMO there are 3 that we have seen glimpses of at first team level and have impressed, yet not being rewarded with further first team action. At that point, it is transcending from trusting the coaches, to asking questions.

The 3 for me are James Whitcombe, Emeka Illione and Archie Vanes. Whitcombe should have had the Joe Heyes treatment of regular 20-30 minute appearances off the bench each week from week 1 of the season. I like Van Wyk and i do think he gets a bad press from fans, but it's a 50/50 call between him and Whitcombe for me, and Whitcombe should get the nod more. Indeed at Quins before the shutdown, he came off the bench and instantly steadied the ship. He's not been rewarded that much since.

Illione again has impressed from his brief cameos. At Irish last season he won a crucial turnover at a crucial point in the game. Came off the bench at home to Quins and within 30 seconds had won a turnover penalty, did the same away in Paris too. I don't think he should be a regular per se, but if Tommy is injured or needs a rest, we should be using him more. I'd rather start a natural jackler like Tommy or Emeka and have Cracknell on the bench if the jackal is not a threat.

Vanes played well in Paris. I know he got three tries, but take that away and he had a decent game overall anyway. Again he has not been rewarded with much game time since. Indeed we have chosen to flog Montoya for over 75 minutes regularly, instead of trusting Vanes or FTT from the bench, which seems pointless to me.

For me, Whitcombe should be more of a first team regular than he is, with Emeka and Archie used more than they have been, even if I don't think they are regulars, they have been vastly underused.

I don't disagree with most of that, I certainly would have played Whitcombe more. Ilione has been a little inconsistent for me, plenty of potential though.

I can understand why Montoya is on the pitch so much - he's a valuable leader in a key position and is clearly fit enough to put in that kind of shift on a regular basis.

It's all a balancing act, but I would hope to see more of these guys getting more minutes now that silverware is very unlikely.

[RagingBull]

I get your argument lock is extremely important especially for a team like us who are forward orientated, but that season there where an extra 6 games and no international break. But in that squad only green, snyman and wells where senior plays chessum was 21, Henderson 22, Martin 21, and chessum made 23 appearances, Martin 22. L chessum is 21 now, carnduff 20, t manz (who I forgot about) 22. It was just that Borthwick seem a lot more prepared to give the academy lad a go and as you say look what they achieved. Plus with the talk of smaller squads and most of the cap going on retaining young talent and the boys who are now internationals. I just feel the cap could be better used than bringing in another snyman, Spenser or enever! But if they could find someone to genuine as a long term 1st like a Batley, cam jorden or kapoku I wouldn’t mind it, just don’t see the point of signing players just to fill a spot in case, when we have back rows who can do that, and I’m still not convinced Hatherall hasn’t been better for us in the row than he has been at 8.

Is it confirmed we are getting an international break, as far as i'm aware we will still be having games during the break next season in terms of the prem cup.
There will still be AI's where we will be missing potentially Henderson, Martin and Chessum in the locks.

Bringing in another Snyman? You know he helped win the league right? Odd thing to compare him to Enever who never played. We got extremely lucky that season in terms of injuries that alot of depth was tested. Although I don't know if anyone remembers the Wasps away game in which Chessum had to play 80 minutes with a stomach bug and our pack bench was
16. Clare, 17. Whitcombe, 18. Heyes, 19. Murimurivalu, 20. Dolly that game didn't go well did it.

And then you mention Batley and Jordan who aren't bad but I don't feel brings any particular point of difference to bring in for no reason. Kpoku yeh but he is gonna stay and imo try and play for France.

Hatherall at 8 hasn't played with our first team pack as far as i'm aware, even at Worcester he thrived because he had multiple ball carrier.

[RagingBull]

People talk about Borthwick bringing through young players and McKellar not.

It's really not that simple - when Borthwick was here there were a few really good youngsters emerging. Steward, JvP, O Chessum, Martin, Reffell, Heyes. 4 or 5 of those are now bordering on world class.

The current crop of youngsters just doesn't compare. Carnduff was very impressive when given the chance and I'd love to see more of him, but L Chessum, Ilione, Edwards etc are simply not there yet. Ok, most of us would like to see a bit more of Ilione too, but based on what we've seen he's not even close to pushing for that starting 7 jersey.

I do agree, and i do normally default to the position of the coaches see more of them then i do. However IMO there are 3 that we have seen glimpses of at first team level and have impressed, yet not being rewarded with further first team action. At that point, it is transcending from trusting the coaches, to asking questions.

The 3 for me are James Whitcombe, Emeka Illione and Archie Vanes. Whitcombe should have had the Joe Heyes treatment of regular 20-30 minute appearances off the bench each week from week 1 of the season. I like Van Wyk and i do think he gets a bad press from fans, but it's a 50/50 call between him and Whitcombe for me, and Whitcombe should get the nod more. Indeed at Quins before the shutdown, he came off the bench and instantly steadied the ship. He's not been rewarded that much since.

Illione again has impressed from his brief cameos. At Irish last season he won a crucial turnover at a crucial point in the game. Came off the bench at home to Quins and within 30 seconds had won a turnover penalty, did the same away in Paris too. I don't think he should be a regular per se, but if Tommy is injured or needs a rest, we should be using him more. I'd rather start a natural jackler like Tommy or Emeka and have Cracknell on the bench if the jackal is not a threat.

Vanes played well in Paris. I know he got three tries, but take that away and he had a decent game overall anyway. Again he has not been rewarded with much game time since. Indeed we have chosen to flog Montoya for over 75 minutes regularly, instead of trusting Vanes or FTT from the bench, which seems pointless to me.

For me, Whitcombe should be more of a first team regular than he is, with Emeka and Archie used more than they have been, even if I don't think they are regulars, they have been vastly underused.

I think there are a couple of other you could add to that I though Edwards looked good in the premiership cup now being locked at by Bristol should probably have gotten so minute with jvp out rather than Powell. Hurd, cokanasiga. Maybe even Cusick or Woodward when we had no wings. I’m not blaming mckellar solely for this I think it’s more proof the 10 team league doesn’t work as there aren’t enough games for coaches to give players a chance. Also what other academy player have we bought through on the last couple season before mckellar so I think there also a bit of a club mindset to look out before in. Also the clubs expectations as are the fans including myself to compete and win in all competitions because we have for the last few seasons, which Borthwick didn’t have as we were rock bottom when he came in. But for me even if some of them are bang average might not make it long term I’d rather give a 21/22 year old a shot like Carmichael or Manz over a bang average 30 year old who’ll also move on in 1/2 seasons, and the process starts all over again. And let’s face it we aren’t bath or Bristol and just go out and buy in a new team.

Edwards is unlucky imo, I still feel Powell on paper was a sensible signing given how long JVP was out for and the potential risk that Youngs picked up a long term injury in the RWC would've meant signing a 9 after would've been alot harder.
Hurd has been given plenty more game time I feel and was hitting his stride prior to injury I mean he's 3rd choice TH.
This season
Heyes 849 minutes
Hurd 414 minutes (If he hadn't gotten injury you could have added another 160 minutes onto that total)
Cole 359 minutes
Cokanasiga is a tough one he has played well in the Prem cup, but has yet to shine in the premiership as a starter when he did get his chance, reality is it seems he's a 12 and not a 13 and Should he be playing over Kata? 3 head coaches and so far none have felt confident of him.

Tom Manz has played like a handful of games at Nottingham and I believe hasn't stood out. So calls for him to get more game time is purely because he's 22
Carmichael personally haven't really see enough to judge I guess he looked decent, but he was always going to be behind Lewis Chessum, and the move to Scotland made a lot of sense.
I though Carter performance in Paris was prob worth his short spell alone when it came to lineouts I felt he helped massively.

Whilst young players should get a chance when they earn it, I also feel people shouldn't fall into a trap of just because they are young means they should get the game time. We have had just as many success from bringing in "bang average players in their 30's" than we have from the academy. People moaned about Ashton, Brown, Wigglesworth and their experience has benefited the team alot more than people thought they would.

[Stephen18]

I do agree, and i do normally default to the position of the coaches see more of them then i do. However IMO there are 3 that we have seen glimpses of at first team level and have impressed, yet not being rewarded with further first team action. At that point, it is transcending from trusting the coaches, to asking questions.

The 3 for me are James Whitcombe, Emeka Illione and Archie Vanes. Whitcombe should have had the Joe Heyes treatment of regular 20-30 minute appearances off the bench each week from week 1 of the season. I like Van Wyk and i do think he gets a bad press from fans, but it's a 50/50 call between him and Whitcombe for me, and Whitcombe should get the nod more. Indeed at Quins before the shutdown, he came off the bench and instantly steadied the ship. He's not been rewarded that much since.

Illione again has impressed from his brief cameos. At Irish last season he won a crucial turnover at a crucial point in the game. Came off the bench at home to Quins and within 30 seconds had won a turnover penalty, did the same away in Paris too. I don't think he should be a regular per se, but if Tommy is injured or needs a rest, we should be using him more. I'd rather start a natural jackler like Tommy or Emeka and have Cracknell on the bench if the jackal is not a threat.

Vanes played well in Paris. I know he got three tries, but take that away and he had a decent game overall anyway. Again he has not been rewarded with much game time since. Indeed we have chosen to flog Montoya for over 75 minutes regularly, instead of trusting Vanes or FTT from the bench, which seems pointless to me.

For me, Whitcombe should be more of a first team regular than he is, with Emeka and Archie used more than they have been, even if I don't think they are regulars, they have been vastly underused.

I think there are a couple of other you could add to that I though Edwards looked good in the premiership cup now being locked at by Bristol should probably have gotten so minute with jvp out rather than Powell. Hurd, cokanasiga. Maybe even Cusick or Woodward when we had no wings. I’m not blaming mckellar solely for this I think it’s more proof the 10 team league doesn’t work as there aren’t enough games for coaches to give players a chance. Also what other academy player have we bought through on the last couple season before mckellar so I think there also a bit of a club mindset to look out before in. Also the clubs expectations as are the fans including myself to compete and win in all competitions because we have for the last few seasons, which Borthwick didn’t have as we were rock bottom when he came in. But for me even if some of them are bang average might not make it long term I’d rather give a 21/22 year old a shot like Carmichael or Manz over a bang average 30 year old who’ll also move on in 1/2 seasons, and the process starts all over again. And let’s face it we aren’t bath or Bristol and just go out and buy in a new team.

Edwards is unlucky imo, I still feel Powell on paper was a sensible signing given how long JVP was out for and the potential risk that Youngs picked up a long term injury in the RWC would've meant signing a 9 after would've been alot harder.
Hurd has been given plenty more game time I feel and was hitting his stride prior to injury I mean he's 3rd choice TH.
This season
Heyes 849 minutes
Hurd 414 minutes (If he hadn't gotten injury you could have added another 160 minutes onto that total)
Cole 359 minutes
Cokanasiga is a tough one he has played well in the Prem cup, but has yet to shine in the premiership as a starter when he did get his chance, reality is it seems he's a 12 and not a 13 and Should he be playing over Kata? 3 head coaches and so far none have felt confident of him.

Tom Manz has played like a handful of games at Nottingham and I believe hasn't stood out. So calls for him to get more game time is purely because he's 22
Carmichael personally haven't really see enough to judge I guess he looked decent, but he was always going to be behind Lewis Chessum, and the move to Scotland made a lot of sense.
I though Carter performance in Paris was prob worth his short spell alone when it came to lineouts I felt he helped massively.

Whilst young players should get a chance when they earn it, I also feel people shouldn't fall into a trap of just because they are young means they should get the game time. We have had just as many success from bringing in "bang average players in their 30's" than we have from the academy. People moaned about Ashton, Brown, Wigglesworth and their experience has benefited the team alot more than people thought they would.

I’ve got nothing against signing players like wigglesworth with over 200 prem games is caming in to compete with youngs for 1st choice, jvp was 20, Edwards 17 so also no depth. Same with Ashton only really nandolo and potter as wing options no academy options, same with brown only really steward he’s away with England no academy 15, if there is a gap or a skill set issue we should try and get the best we can get to try and have 2 1st choice. My issue was the talk that we should try and sign a 4th choice 2nd row to replace Wells, when there are academy 2nd rows who could fill that role. I just feel with the cap the where it is, profitability, the squad size where ever possible we should be filling gaps and promotion academy players, rather then signing squad players.

[TigerFeetSteve]

I think there are a couple of other you could add to that I though Edwards looked good in the premiership cup now being locked at by Bristol should probably have gotten so minute with jvp out rather than Powell. Hurd, cokanasiga. Maybe even Cusick or Woodward when we had no wings. I’m not blaming mckellar solely for this I think it’s more proof the 10 team league doesn’t work as there aren’t enough games for coaches to give players a chance. Also what other academy player have we bought through on the last couple season before mckellar so I think there also a bit of a club mindset to look out before in. Also the clubs expectations as are the fans including myself to compete and win in all competitions because we have for the last few seasons, which Borthwick didn’t have as we were rock bottom when he came in. But for me even if some of them are bang average might not make it long term I’d rather give a 21/22 year old a shot like Carmichael or Manz over a bang average 30 year old who’ll also move on in 1/2 seasons, and the process starts all over again. And let’s face it we aren’t bath or Bristol and just go out and buy in a new team.

Edwards is unlucky imo, I still feel Powell on paper was a sensible signing given how long JVP was out for and the potential risk that Youngs picked up a long term injury in the RWC would've meant signing a 9 after would've been alot harder.
Hurd has been given plenty more game time I feel and was hitting his stride prior to injury I mean he's 3rd choice TH.
This season
Heyes 849 minutes
Hurd 414 minutes (If he hadn't gotten injury you could have added another 160 minutes onto that total)
Cole 359 minutes
Cokanasiga is a tough one he has played well in the Prem cup, but has yet to shine in the premiership as a starter when he did get his chance, reality is it seems he's a 12 and not a 13 and Should he be playing over Kata? 3 head coaches and so far none have felt confident of him.

Tom Manz has played like a handful of games at Nottingham and I believe hasn't stood out. So calls for him to get more game time is purely because he's 22
Carmichael personally haven't really see enough to judge I guess he looked decent, but he was always going to be behind Lewis Chessum, and the move to Scotland made a lot of sense.
I though Carter performance in Paris was prob worth his short spell alone when it came to lineouts I felt he helped massively.

Whilst young players should get a chance when they earn it, I also feel people shouldn't fall into a trap of just because they are young means they should get the game time. We have had just as many success from bringing in "bang average players in their 30's" than we have from the academy. People moaned about Ashton, Brown, Wigglesworth and their experience has benefited the team alot more than people thought they would.

I’ve got nothing against signing players like wigglesworth with over 200 prem games is caming in to compete with youngs for 1st choice, jvp was 20, Edwards 17 so also no depth. Same with Ashton only really nandolo and potter as wing options no academy options, same with brown only really steward he’s away with England no academy 15, if there is a gap or a skill set issue we should try and get the best we can get to try and have 2 1st choice. My issue was the talk that we should try and sign a 4th choice 2nd row to replace Wells, when there are academy 2nd rows who could fill that role. I just feel with the cap the where it is, profitability, the squad size where ever possible we should be filling gaps and promotion academy players, rather then signing squad players.

It's a big attritional position in the 2nd row...

Think most of the discussion saying we need another basically has Wells as 5th choice and the requirement is for a 4th choice, primarily big lock rather than a lineout lock.

Martin
Chessum
Henderson

Are the top 3 choices.

Wells would have been 4th choice there, but there is a feeling he has dropped his standard a bit.

Lewis Chessum/Finn Carnduff/Osain Thomas are possibly going to be in the running for gametime there next season.

Thing is we normally use 7 or 8 locks most seasons, as much as we rate Chessum Jnr, Thomas and Carnduff are any of them starter level lock because its is easily forseable that all 3 of our first choices are away in the AI's say. Lewis Chessum has been good, but a heavily injury struck season and being good but not exceptional at Nat 1 level doesn't say he can be relied on to start in the prem. Carnduff is primarily a 6 so let's focus on him getting time there to help him break through. Thomas is still new in terms of Development Locks... Lets not forget the most recent locks to break through also broke out as a 6 before moving to lock in the cases of both Martin and Chessum...

Whichever way you spin it we need an extra body with more exposure and experience than our young lads to be in the 2nd row...

We can do that one of two ways IMO sign a 4th choice lock, or sign a starting 8 (to free up Hatherall to play more there). A 4th choice lock is certainly the cheaper of the two options.