LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[RagingBull]

Is it game plan?
Because we don’t do it with JvP?

Like how much is it game plan v poor execution?

It’s like Freddie Burns used to do those over the top chip and chases that cost us more times than not was that cockers game plan?

[TigerFeetSteve]

I think Simmonds was a brilliant scrum half prior to injury and that put pay to him playing 9 again. For me he is a far better 9 than winger and he should be reinstated he is in a different league to Whiteley

Problem for me is that a sucession of coaches have not rated him at scrum half.

Pre pandemic was the last time he played there for Tigers, over 4 years ago now. After the pandemic in the covid affected season he went out on loan to Jersey supposedly as a 9, but other than a preseason game for Jersey he barely played there mostly appearing on the wing or fullback.

Last season during preseason he was heavily photographed at 9, but injured in preseason and not seen him there once since.

Scrum half is a technical position that needs practice there.

Has one of his past injuries made scrum half difficult for him to play? Or have multiple coaches not rated him there?

The ONLY way I see him coming back as a 9 is if this injury allows him to REALLY work on that side of his play.

He joined the academy as a fullback and Tigers converted him. He's got pace and a step, is comfortable collecting and chasing kicks. Add to that the all round skills he gained from playing 9 for a few years and it makes him a handy winger.

I don't think he had the kicking and game management skills for 9 which would have meant he was only ever likely to play there as bench impact which would limit his opportunities.

I do hope he has worked on it. I really think with the makeup of our squad we can do 6-2 bench a bit more (even 7-1 with a Shillcock at 15 in a 6N period). If you go 6-2 it means once fully match fit (80min fit) the likes of JvP can plan to stay on the full game, not waste a bench spot/feel like we have to bring one of our best game managers off.

[Tiglon]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if there's a cull at the end of next season. Particularly around the backrow as we look to refine what we need with the next generation coming through. We have seen Carnduff already, hopefully Ilione completes the step up alongside Josh Manz and Chessum Jnr. That would give us some depth so we could redistribute some of the funds.

Dan Cole and Ben Youngs are proper club heroes but we do need some succession planning. Particularly at 9.

Agreed. I'm a huge, huge fan of players like Wells and Clare, but they don't seem at a high enough level any more.

Two of the players I'd keep and let succession gradually do it's thing. Clare won't be expensive but he's a solid set piece hooker. Wells has had an off season but is tough and you know he'll put it all on the line. Let the young guns slowly push them down the pecking order.

The cull I was thinking of would be more in the backrow where Rogerson, Hatherall and Cracknell could swiftly be fighting for one spot as the youngsters start to come through and we maybe look at carrying less depth and turn two squad players into one more expensive but better player, plus increases for the youngsters.

I take you're point, but when faced with dynamic attacking teams, we're seeing a pattern of these guys coming off the bench and being exposed as a little off the pace. Like I said, I have huge respect for these guys, more so than the fancy, flashy, eye catching players, but they just seem 10% too slow and that's enough for the quicker teams to take advantage.

It makes more sense to start them, they will be solid in the tight early exchanges, but other teams seem to favour impact subs that come on and up the tempo in the last 10/20 and some of ours just can't keep up.

FTT or Vanes would have been better suited to the last 15 minutes yesterday.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Agreed. I'm a huge, huge fan of players like Wells and Clare, but they don't seem at a high enough level any more.

Two of the players I'd keep and let succession gradually do it's thing. Clare won't be expensive but he's a solid set piece hooker. Wells has had an off season but is tough and you know he'll put it all on the line. Let the young guns slowly push them down the pecking order.

The cull I was thinking of would be more in the backrow where Rogerson, Hatherall and Cracknell could swiftly be fighting for one spot as the youngsters start to come through and we maybe look at carrying less depth and turn two squad players into one more expensive but better player, plus increases for the youngsters.

I take you're point, but when faced with dynamic attacking teams, we're seeing a pattern of these guys coming off the bench and being exposed as a little off the pace. Like I said, I have huge respect for these guys, more so than the fancy, flashy, eye catching players, but they just seem 10% too slow and that's enough for the quicker teams to take advantage.

It makes more sense to start them, they will be solid in the tight early exchanges, but other teams seem to favour impact subs that come on and up the tempo in the last 10/20 and some of ours just can't keep up.

FTT or Vanes would have been better suited to the last 15 minutes yesterday.

I think Dolly would have been perfectly suited to yesterday

[RagingBull]

It is interesting watching the recruitment over the last 3 off seasons

Scrum Half: van Poortvliet, Wigglesworth, Youngs
Fly Half: Burns, Ford,
Centre: Kelly, Moroni, Porter, Scott, Socino, Taute,
Winger: Ashton, Nadolo Potter, Saumaki, Simmons
Full Back: Hegarty, Murimurivalu, Steward,
v
Scrum Half: van Poortvliet, Whiteley, Youngs
Fly Half: Pollard, Shillcock, Wilkinson
Centre: Cokanasiga, Kata, Kelly, Porter, Scott,
Winger: Bassett, Hassell-Collins, Simmons, Watson
Full Back: Brown, Steward

The experience difference between the 2 sets of backs is crazy really
Wigglesworth nearly 500 top class games
Ford 300
Burns 324
Moroni 155 games
Taute 151
Socino 129
Nadolo 232
Ashton 359
Saumaki 50
Murimurivalu 218
Hegarty 151
total 2,569 caps

v came in
Whiteley 74
Pollard 180
Shillcock 108
Wilkinson 33
Cokansiga 15
Kata 60
Bassett 195
OHC 109
Watson 210
Brown 465
Total 1,449

It's kinda a crazy difference in terms of brains trust, it's really telling the lack of leadership once Brown.

[DeadlyDunc]

I’ve been saying the same for months - the Experience and quality has dropped off the edge of a cliff since the PL win.

It’s not the be and all and end all but I count 15 internationals in the first group and 10 in the second with Porter and Scott going and only Perese coming (so far) its another one off the list and another step down.

Do the same in the forwards and it’s compounded even further.

We’ve replaced experience and international quality with bang average IMO. That may be due to cap reductions and factors outside of our control but also shines a light on recruitment when other clubs have found ways to make clever and often cheaper pick ups.

[RagingBull]

I’ve been saying the same for months - the Experience and quality has dropped off the edge of a cliff since the PL win.

It’s not the be and all and end all but I count 15 internationals in the first group and 10 in the second with Porter and Scott going and only Perese coming (so far) its another one off the list and another step down.

Do the same in the forwards and it’s compounded even further.

We’ve replaced experience and international quality with bang average IMO. That may be due to cap reductions and factors outside of our control but also shines a light on recruitment when other clubs have found ways to make clever and often cheaper pick ups.

I think 4 key things happened
Backs
Borthwick panicked with Ford going and brought Gopperth in to try and replace Ford on the training ground. The problem with that is we lost Moroni who on the pitch created a lot more in defence and attack.
Losing Wigglesworth was second big blow not just as a coach but his knowledge on the prem, having him as a 3rd choice scrum half v Whiteley is night and day.

Forwards
Losing Green. Martin and Chessum will become Tigers legends hopefully but with Green it felt like every maul was going to be a try and every opposition maul could be stopped.
Genge we just don't have a carrier in the front row now, and to top it off Genge was a leader and still a beast in the scrum


I don't agree with the bang average comment TBH
Watson is class but walking sick note
OHC is one of the brightest talents in the league before coming
Shillcock is again an excellent player, he was excellent for Worcester and Bath
Kata is up with Nadolo in terms of power
Trouble is we don't have the attack brain power to unlock these players effectively.
9. Wigglesworth
10. Ford
11. OHC
12. Kata
13. Moroni
14. Brown
15. Shillcock
IMO would go a lot differently than the last month. (Deliberately not picking Kelly, Scott, Steward just to try and prove depth)

[Leicestertinytiger]

I know Socino and Muri didn’t play loads that season - but how much do you think they were adding every day on the training pitch. Bags of experience and seemed like people who’d get other people raring to go. Saumaki too, hardly played but when he did was a deadly finisher.

You look at the backs today. Outside of the regular 10 in the starting 23, where is that experience coming from and strength in depth. Other than Basset and Brown we haven’t got any.

RB is right, a difference in a 1,000 appearances is telling and you can tell.

[sam16111986]

Two of the players I'd keep and let succession gradually do it's thing. Clare won't be expensive but he's a solid set piece hooker. Wells has had an off season but is tough and you know he'll put it all on the line. Let the young guns slowly push them down the pecking order.

The cull I was thinking of would be more in the backrow where Rogerson, Hatherall and Cracknell could swiftly be fighting for one spot as the youngsters start to come through and we maybe look at carrying less depth and turn two squad players into one more expensive but better player, plus increases for the youngsters.

I take you're point, but when faced with dynamic attacking teams, we're seeing a pattern of these guys coming off the bench and being exposed as a little off the pace. Like I said, I have huge respect for these guys, more so than the fancy, flashy, eye catching players, but they just seem 10% too slow and that's enough for the quicker teams to take advantage.

It makes more sense to start them, they will be solid in the tight early exchanges, but other teams seem to favour impact subs that come on and up the tempo in the last 10/20 and some of ours just can't keep up.

FTT or Vanes would have been better suited to the last 15 minutes yesterday.

I think Dolly would have been perfectly suited to yesterday

One thing Charlie Clare does help with us scrum time. He's a good scrummaging hooker. With doubts over the scrum it makes sense to have him there for that.

We've definitely missed Dolly with his injury. He added a lot as Montoya's understudy, his lineout was good and his work in the loose at the end of games was a big benefit.

[sapajo]

He has made some bad decisions but is playing the head coaches game plan. This season started fairly badly and is going down hill, feels a little unfair to focus on him when as a team we are not the sum of our parts - in my opinion.

Mckellar said post match it was the players decision. So my question to you given your statement above is are you calling Mckellar a liar?

[DeadlyDunc]

I’ve been saying the same for months - the Experience and quality has dropped off the edge of a cliff since the PL win.

It’s not the be and all and end all but I count 15 internationals in the first group and 10 in the second with Porter and Scott going and only Perese coming (so far) its another one off the list and another step down.

Do the same in the forwards and it’s compounded even further.

We’ve replaced experience and international quality with bang average IMO. That may be due to cap reductions and factors outside of our control but also shines a light on recruitment when other clubs have found ways to make clever and often cheaper pick ups.

I think 4 key things happened
Backs
Borthwick panicked with Ford going and brought Gopperth in to try and replace Ford on the training ground. The problem with that is we lost Moroni who on the pitch created a lot more in defence and attack.
Losing Wigglesworth was second big blow not just as a coach but his knowledge on the prem, having him as a 3rd choice scrum half v Whiteley is night and day.

Forwards
Losing Green. Martin and Chessum will become Tigers legends hopefully but with Green it felt like every maul was going to be a try and every opposition maul could be stopped.
Genge we just don't have a carrier in the front row now, and to top it off Genge was a leader and still a beast in the scrum


I don't agree with the bang average comment TBH
Watson is class but walking sick note
OHC is one of the brightest talents in the league before coming
Shillcock is again an excellent player, he was excellent for Worcester and Bath
Kata is up with Nadolo in terms of power
Trouble is we don't have the attack brain power to unlock these players effectively.
9. Wigglesworth
10. Ford
11. OHC
12. Kata
13. Moroni
14. Brown
15. Shillcock
IMO would go a lot differently than the last month. (Deliberately not picking Kelly, Scott, Steward just to try and prove depth)

Put it another way with regards to recruitment - how many of the replacements / new recruits would you want ahead of the players when we won the league?

If you are generous you might go Shilcock ahead of Burns (many wouldn’t) and maybe OHC ahead of Ashton - again many wouldn’t but in fairness Ashy has retired

I’d take Genge, Nephi, Brink, MVS, Saumaki, Ford and Potter right now ahead of our current players.

[sam16111986]

Brink was never fit, Nephi never quite had the impact we hoped and same for Saumaki even if he did turn up with the occasional miracle finish.

MVS was a great acquisition and it's a real shame he had the concussion issues. Potter is a loss, he was a guy when your back was against the wall you know he'd front up. Tidy all round winger. Ford is as much a coach as he is a player, I'd put some money on him becoming a decent coach when he retires.

We've had some bad luck with injuries which we were quite lucky with when we won the league.

The squad for next season looks ok but another 13/wing signing to add some pace and hopefully physicality as we'll not be able to rely on Weise making metres and carries every other phase.

[RagingBull]

I like Kata as a 12 tbh would’ve allowed Porter to stay on the wing which was is my preferred position for him tbh, I would’ve had Kata in for Socino and Taute combined wage.
Shillcock def over Hegarty
Cracknell v Jansen is close
Brown over Murimurivalu
,

Honestly Pollard is on par with Ford imo, but Ford I feel is a better on field coach.

[DeadlyDunc]

So my point remains, of the 20 odd coming and goings the best between the 2 of us can muster is 4 - 5 betterments.

[LE18]

I texted my family and said if he is selected again im giving up my season ticket.

Wasn’t Whiteley decent in earlier games ? Seems like he’s copping the flack for a collective effort ?

He's been average to date. His commitment in defence is his main plus point. The choice and execution of the box kick at the end was very poor and unnecessary. He's copping the flack for people's frustrations but it is sort of his own doing.

AS you have all responded to my comment I think I should also respond and say Sam has put it precisely, I dont remember him being any more than average in his earlier games, he has made this same kicking decision late on in at least 2 or 3 games now, is that really the game plan? If so its ridiculous, keep the ball at all times dont go giving it away especially when a man short, its time the coaches got to understand that and moreso the players who have been fighting like mad to win the ball. Didnt I read somewhere where players could choose to change the play if need be, probably another club, but any captain with half decent experience would want to hang on to it. But thats another question, where was our Captain he had been substitited, too early in my opionion, along with others who could have lasted longer and not made it off the pitch just because the clock said times up.
Sorry that Whitley took flack from the fans, he is young but the question is why did he come over to the Crumbie and argue, he should have stayed away over in the middle?
Once Montoya went off, was Pollard Captain, someone should have taken Whitley to one side.
I just wonder what those players who had fought their hearts out thought of all that, gutted im sure.
Not a lot left to play for now after that result, guess we will be seeing the "extras" in the remaining matches.
And finally yes my season ticket is already being paid for, just a very frustrated reaction to a game we gave away.