Trailfinders a sad indictment of rugby

[LE18]

Ring fencing has killed four clubs, how many more are you planning on letting go to the wall, fans will not follow a game where there is little or no jeopardy, protectionism has failed to work anywhere.

Ringfencing didnt cause their downfall, all 4 played at stadiums that conformed to size etc, most was caused by lack of fan base and bad management and over spending.

You have to put up with ringfencing if clubs have to build on infastucture to meet stupid rules, and how many so called fans dont turn up if their club is not playing for a cup, dont good rugby fans just go to watch a rugby game?

By the way, there is a match at Welford Road this week, are you going? Yes I am, its an opportunity to watch a rugby game and see a Portugal side, how about that?

[tigerburnie]

Lack of fanbase, the product was going out of fashion, remember the last game of the season 2018/19 I think, we went to Newcastle, both teams knew whoever lost was relegated, that was an amazing match we were fortunate to win. What is there now for those clubs at or near the bottom?
Nothing, nada, zilch, little point fans going.
Sure asset strippers and fantasists didn't help, but the product is stale and now with only 10 teams, even less for fans to watch, sport is not sport unless there is something at stake, dead rubbers interest no-one, we need competition back in the league and a promise of something great for those who might get promotion. If there were playoffs, that would settle who is the better side, if the Championship side were to lose, they would know what they have to do to succeed, at the minute all you have to do is have a sugar daddy, you don't actually have to have a decent side, a decent product that fans will buy into.

[Rugbygramps]

I thought average fan numbers had increased but I’m possibly mistaken.

[Tiglon]

I thought average fan numbers had increased but I’m possibly mistaken.

I'm not sure about this year so far, but last season they were up on previous year but still down vs every non-covid season since 2014. And that's even with most of the lesser supported clubs going bankrupt, which will have plumped up the average figures considerably.

Total Premiership attendance (which is arguably more important) last season was the lowest (apart from covid years) since 2004. 25% fewer people went to watch a live Prem match than most of the last decade or so.

Not a promising picture.

[johnthegriff]

Average fan numbers go up because there are mow fewer clubs with low attendances, total numbers go down because there are fewer clubs.
I think Tigerburnie has everything that needs to be said regarding the need for jeopardy. There is a danger that a relegated team will lose.players that want to remain at the higher level but they will be going to a club that in turn will release a Premiership quality player maybe to the Championship, Ealing had a few such players that I am sure each week enhance the standard of the second tier.

[Rugbygramps]

Tigerburnie makes some very good points I’m just unsure of how much he said has anything to do with 4 clubs going out of business in each of the 4 cases through different types of financial mismanagement nothing to do with bums on seats.
The continued impact of a global pandemic on club’s finances, at all levels, even 4 years after the onset, cannot be overstated, and I still know people who are unsure bout attending large scale gatherings

[Tiglon]

Tigerburnie makes some very good points I’m just unsure of how much he said has anything to do with 4 clubs going out of business in each of the 4 cases through different types of financial mismanagement nothing to do with bums on seats.
The continued impact of a global pandemic on club’s finances, at all levels, even 4 years after the onset, cannot be overstated, and I still know people who are unsure bout attending large scale gatherings

Probably not a coincidence that the 3 who went bust were all in the top 5 lowest attendances. Of the other two, Sale are losing a fortune but the owner has deep enough pockets to cover it, and Newcastle spend way less on salaries than anyone else and accept that they will finish bottom.

[Tigerbeat]

Tigerburnie makes some very good points I’m just unsure of how much he said has anything to do with 4 clubs going out of business in each of the 4 cases through different types of financial mismanagement nothing to do with bums on seats.
The continued impact of a global pandemic on club’s finances, at all levels, even 4 years after the onset, cannot be overstated, and I still know people who are unsure bout attending large scale gatherings

Probably not a coincidence that the 3 who went bust were all in the top 5 lowest attendances. Of the other two, Sale are losing a fortune but the owner has deep enough pockets to cover it, and Newcastle spend way less on salaries than anyone else and accept that they will finish bottom.

Newcastle must have some real expenses for their away games as there are no local matches. Tigers have Saints and Gloucester as matches where travel can be done on the match day.
Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Gloucester have a good geographical catch
Saracens, Quins - have each other but have decent attendances and funding.

[Old Hob]

American football survives quite well without promotion/ relegation.

On paper, London Welsh's move looked like a good bet, Oxford being a place that has traditionally supported rugby and, with Worcester, Saints or Reading Irish being the nearest, a bit of a desert. Clearly, the market research by Welsh (if they actually did any) was not robust enough.
Their first game did not bode well as, to my eye at least, the Green White and Red shirts were the majority.

The RFU needs to be weaned off its relentless and narrow focus on elite rugby. Of course that's important, but for all its talk about grassroots/growing the game they seem unable to grasp what is actually happening (or not happening).

Away matches in South Africa are fine if you are part of a paid for jolly but many of us struggle to get to away matches in Europe and some to away matches in England. The sugar daddy model is hopelessly flawed and is surely doomed.

Would ordinary supporters agree if they were allowed to implement changes or would they be divided?

In the 19th century there was a revolution in our game (and others). It was codified and released from the schools and colleges where it had been held captive. Over 100 years later, we need another revolution if the game is to survive.

[Rugbygramps]

I understand the points that Tigerburnie is making. As far as I’m aware relegation and promotion still exists other the between premiership and championship.
I don’t agree that teams have nothing to play for towards the end of the season, if my memory serves there were only 2 teams in the premiership on the final week of last season, that had nothing to play for , even if it was European qualification, and I would expect it to be the same this.
In the championship there is still the threat of relegation, and how many teams really want promotion and all the issues that currently brings.
IMO the ideal number of teams in the premiership is 12 so let’s promote the top 2 if they want it. There are then 2 paths, imo, that can be gone down, either promotion/relegation is kept , and the very likely danger that one of those 2 clubs is relegated having spent large amounts of money on wages, infrastructure etc. leaving them with debt and a possible player exodus.
Or the premiership can then be ring fenced for a couple of seasons allowing those 2 clubs to consolidate their position.
Personally I favour the 2nd option others will disagree

[Hot_Charlie]

I thought average fan numbers had increased but I’m possibly mistaken.

For Ealing?

Pre-Covid it was just over 800 I think (and I think that included the anomoly of a local London Irish derby that season with a crowd of around 2500); last season it was in the 900-950 bracket I think (with the "anomoly" of one of the clubs laying on enormous away support at one fixture, bumping that match again to the 2500 mark).

[Hot_Charlie]

My personal opinion is that Ealing have no desire to fulfill the requirements for promotion; they are only interested in a solution where they make no large financial outlay. They're happy sitting at or around the top of the Championship.

[GB72]

My personal opinion is that Ealing have no desire to fulfill the requirements for promotion; they are only interested in a solution where they make no large financial outlay. They're happy sitting at or around the top of the Championship.

This is where I get confused. They must be paying out a decent chunk in wages to get that team together but have no significant revenue and nor are they likely to get any in the Championship as it stands and yet they seem to make little or no effort to move towards having the facilities to join the Premiership. None of it make sense.

I agree that there is the potential to increase crowd size following promotion but having under 1000 people at a match is not a good look for the top league and it would be plain embarrassing for the away support to outnumber the home support, which is not impossible.

I just do not get what the end game is.

[Hot_Charlie]

My personal opinion is that Ealing have no desire to fulfill the requirements for promotion; they are only interested in a solution where they make no large financial outlay. They're happy sitting at or around the top of the Championship.

This is where I get confused. They must be paying out a decent chunk in wages to get that team together but have no significant revenue and nor are they likely to get any in the Championship as it stands and yet they seem to make little or no effort to move towards having the facilities to join the Premiership. None of it make sense.

I agree that there is the potential to increase crowd size following promotion but having under 1000 people at a match is not a good look for the top league and it would be plain embarrassing for the away support to outnumber the home support, which is not impossible.

I just do not get what the end game is.

The longer it goes on I think they are deep down happy as a big rich fish amongst a poorer pond of more traditional clubs. Meanwhile they then "blame" the establishment for them not fulfilling the criteria.

Its worth remembering they have NEVER submitted any plan which attempts to fulfil the criteria for promotion. Never.

[mol2]

I don’t see American football’s franchise system a good comparison.
No one outside the USA plays it in any significant way.

Wasps were a slow financial “car crash.” No ground so moved away from their fan base and a financial model that relied on miracle benefactor to pay the debts.

London Irish were likely a Covid victim.

Worcester were a rather more complicated mess.

If sides want the TV money to keep coming in, there needs to be competitive games throughout the season to keep the neutrals interested. Newcastle v Glaws in May to decide on 8th & 9th? If that was a relegation decider it would be different.

European qualification is potentially losing interest. Our clubs can’t compete with the megabucks French sides and the Ireland training team under the current financial rules. Add to that the inclusion of South African teams which means long distance journeys with sides often turning out B sides to manage the situation.

Add to that the egos and insular approach of the Premiership team owners and the RFU which harps back to the amateur era when it was in charge it is no e owonder the club v country is helping neither maintain public interest in rugby. The BBC and ITV are disinterested in rugby. (Outside of the 6N)