Tigers v La Rochelle (A) - Champions Cup - Sunday 14th January 2024 - KO - 3-15pm

[Old Hob]

Many poster's answers to our problems seem to be money and then more money. Someone mentioned Toomua who had a great first season with us and then tailed off dramatically so, I suspect, money is not always the answer. Cohesion seems to be lacking, players overrunning the passing lane, passes going behind, above, beyond the intended recipient...
Is it system errors, a wrong system, personnel problems or bad luck that causes us to misfire so badly?
Answers on a postcard please.

[Bluemagoo]

Didnt see it live, just watched recording, all our problems to my mind came from L R power, strength, weight, even their backs, we were out muscled the whole of the game, set piece, rucks, mauls etc putting our backs under terrible pressure. When we did have a bit of momentum, against 13 men, Pollard kicks it dead, ,also we were kicking the ball away saying here you are, you are bigger and stronger than us, have another go.
I think todays game shows you have to have loads of big heavy forwards, and some backs, especially with the number of replacements, you just swap 1 for another big guy, if he runs out of steam, who is going to win you the ball and run over you.

They have a team of Auks but Leinster still beat them

Leinster beat them at a time when they were hit with many key players injured....the injured players have only returned to playing in recent weeks and the change in their results is noticeable.

nope... when we (Leinster) played them they were only missing 3 of the 15 that started the final. Check the lineups. btw looking forward to visiting Welford Road next weekend. One of the great rugby grounds.

[ourla]

Is it system errors, a wrong system, personnel problems or bad luck that causes us to misfire so badly?

In my opinion system/coaching problems.

[fentiger]

My earlier suggestion re the RFU injecting cash was meant as a way of both making clubs more competitive in Europe and also I would hope keeping clubs afloat. Surely it's in their wider interest to do so? I don't run with the Covid thing now, they have had long enough to get over that like most businesses have. Twickenham stands empty for, probably, 40 weeks of the year (I know there are concerts etc held there), it should be used in a more profitable manner as it's a chief asset, IMO!

[Tigerbeat]

My earlier suggestion re the RFU injecting cash was meant as a way of both making clubs more competitive in Europe and also I would hope keeping clubs afloat. Surely it's in their wider interest to do so? I don't run with the Covid thing now, they have had long enough to get over that like most businesses have. Twickenham stands empty for, probably, 40 weeks of the year (I know there are concerts etc held there), it should be used in a more profitable manner as it's a chief asset, IMO!

Twickenham being in a residential area does have its limitations with the local authorities so is not as easy as it sounds.

[GB72]

My earlier suggestion re the RFU injecting cash was meant as a way of both making clubs more competitive in Europe and also I would hope keeping clubs afloat. Surely it's in their wider interest to do so? I don't run with the Covid thing now, they have had long enough to get over that like most businesses have. Twickenham stands empty for, probably, 40 weeks of the year (I know there are concerts etc held there), it should be used in a more profitable manner as it's a chief asset, IMO!

Really not easy to do. having large numbers of concerts is not good for the pitch (as we found out a few years ago) and Twickenham is not rated as a great venue by concert goers. Then you look at sporting event and are competing with the football stadiums. Spurs, The Emirates, Wembley, the London Stadium, all more modern and better equipped than Twickenham and get the NFL matches etc.

Not sure how many events there are that require a stadium of that capacity that are not better served by the football grounds.

[Tiglon]

Plenty of businesses out there that have not yet "got over" covid, and I suspect you can include most English rugby clubs and the RFU in that.

Even if they could/did give the clubs a load of cash to increase wages, they'd have to do that every single season to match the French.

[johnthegriff]

Toomua. actually had a shocking first season with us a red card followed by serious injury. His second season was good but the team fell short of what we expected then Matt O' Connor arrived. His final season with us he was commuting between England and Australia on an almost weekly basis, played very well in the crucial away win at Newcastle.
Personally I would get rid of the marquee player system, increase the. Salary Cap with each club submitting a five year business plan accompanied by secured guarantees from owners etc.
Money is not the answer to everything although it helps, the players no matter how good still have to blend into a team and the system either has to suit the available players or the players fit the system.

[GB72]

Toomua. actually had a shocking first season with us a red card followed by serious injury. His second season was good but the team fell short of what we expected then Matt O' Connor arrived. His final season with us he was commuting between England and Australia on an almost weekly basis, played very well in the crucial away win at Newcastle.
Personally I would get rid of the marquee player system, increase the. Salary Cap with each club submitting a five year business plan accompanied by secured guarantees from owners etc.
Money is not the answer to everything although it helps, the players no matter how good still have to blend into a team and the system either has to suit the available players or the players fit the system.

I like the idea of a 5 year plan tied to the salary cap. I would, in fact, be happy with less restriction on salary cap but the level of spending is determined by what can be spent over a 5 year period to break even with, as you mention, secured guarantees for any shortfall that cannot then be converted into debt. If you miss your financial targets to break even in, lets say, 3 of the 5 years then you are penalised in the cap the following year.

Simple fact is that despite everything, clubs are not spending within their means and that is probably the first thing that needs to be attacked.

I would also have the RFU and the clubs campaigning to the Government to have the covid loans wiped as otherwise they will have been a total waste, They were given to save the clubs and the sport and are now ironically forming a significant part of the sports financial colapse.

[RichardB]

Agree 100% about Martin & Chessum - wouldn't swap them for any other pairings at the moment. & then we should have Wells on the bench who is also playing well.

One of them days yesterday - we were unlikely to ever get anything form a team spending twice as much as us playing at home, desperate to win.

Onwards

[GB72]

Just a really insane thought but if there is not going to a be a parity of salary caps across Europe, you invite the clubs that cannot currently compete (Welsh Regions, the 2 Scottish clubs, the Premiership) maybe add a couple of clubs from the Championship, you make one big league of 18 or so clubs and play that throughout the season with a wider reaching domestic cup competition and withdraw from Europe leaving the the rest to work out who has the biggest wallet.

This really is not a serious suggestion just something that came into my mind on a long Monday afternoon.

[fentiger]

Just a really insane thought but if there is not going to a be a parity of salary caps across Europe, you invite the clubs that cannot currently compete (Welsh Regions, the 2 Scottish clubs, the Premiership) maybe add a couple of clubs from the Championship, you make one big league of 18 or so clubs and play that throughout the season with a wider reaching domestic cup competition and withdraw from Europe leaving the the rest to work out who has the biggest wallet.

This really is not a serious suggestion just something that came into my mind on a long Monday afternoon.

Maybe more than a fleeting idea, though! It beggars belief that with recent events such as three premiership clubs going bust that something hasn't been mooted along these lines. All that appears to happen is things like the South African clubs being admitted to European competition which add more strain to club resources and finances with regard to travel etc.
I completely get that players want to play in the top competitions but if something like this happened it may just make the French and Irish realise it's not so much fun on their own!
I know it's cloud cuckoo land...

[mol2]

We saw with the 6N, the TV money is the key. France gets its own because it has historically done so but when England wanted to do so, there was an almighty stink because the the other nations know how much money English TV pulls in.

In the end if the English pull out, what will happen to the TV money from the European competitions?

Would there be an interest from the Scottish and Welsh clubs? They know there is no likelihood of competing with the French sides and the Irish Regions (with Leinster and to a lesser extent Munster functioning as the training squads for Ireland)

In the end English, Welsh and Scottish sides share the same target for the TV companies and advertisers.
I suspect they all have, to a large extent suffered from their respective unions being more interested in their own power base than the need to have a strong club set up for the benefit of the national side and vice versa.

[Wellscity]

Does the RFU buy the players, pay their wages and fill the club grounds?. Do they arrange the sponsors on behalf of all the clubs?

If the clubs buy, purchase and insure the players, arrange for sponsors and fill the grounds home and away then why are we suggesting the RFU cannot allow clubs a higher salary cap.
I know some will say that some clubs will fail if they cannot compete in the Premiership or Championship. but the game is apparently more than home leagues.
This may go someway to retain quality players and stop them looking for better salaries in France, Japan and American Football

[Tiglon]

Does the RFU buy the players, pay their wages and fill the club grounds?. Do they arrange the sponsors on behalf of all the clubs?

If the clubs buy, purchase and insure the players, arrange for sponsors and fill the grounds home and away then why are we suggesting the RFU cannot allow clubs a higher salary cap.
I know some will say that some clubs will fail if they cannot compete in the Premiership or Championship. but the game is apparently more than home leagues.
This may go someway to retain quality players and stop them looking for better salaries in France, Japan and American Football

I don't think anyone is saying the RFU cannot allow a higher salary cap. The suggestion was made that the RFU should fund a higher salary cap, which most think is not possible.

I think the point is that clubs can't afford higher salaries, which is pretty irrefutable IMO.