Tigers v Quins (H) - Premiership - Saturday 11th November 2023 KO: 15:05

[kk20gb30]

Being brutally honest in all the years I've supported Leicester (and on here) the only thing I have called for is Winning Rugby
It matters not how....one point more than the opposition.Beginning.Middle .End.
This was how I was taught.This was how I played (semi pro , by the way) and this is how it will always be.
You get no points for style.

We had a player like you in our team (not rugby) in recent years. Once said in a team meeting that at the last match he was the only one trying. Another time in the pub after a game someone mentioned his sulky nature and he picked up his bag and walked out. We got rid in the end as he made things toxic.

Winning isn't, and shouldn't be, easy at any level.

Firstly , you neither know me or know how I played.
I have and do appreciate team values.
I have captained (elected, after independent nomination), coached and played at levels up to semi pro.
You make too many assumptions with regard to me as a person.

I consider myself realistic.As I say though , say what you see.
I would never, ever imply that 'winning was easy' - quite the contrary, in fact.
Anything and anyone is questionable and no one is perfect.
We (Leicester) play professional rugby and that carries with it responsibilities. If/when this is the case you should be prepared to both look at, criticize and understand. Wishing it away does not necessarily make it better neither, does overt rudeness because you do not like what someone has written.

[sapajo]

What is going on at Chiefs is interesting they have lost key players and replaced them with comparative new comers. Yet they are clicking as the sum of their parts whilst playing an evolved style of rugby. That is the wheel that Mckellar needs to square as we have the players at Tigers but we are not yet functioning as a team and his style of rugby has yet to be identifiable. Time will tell

[mol2]

What is going on at Chiefs is interesting they have lost key players and replaced them with comparative new comers. Yet they are clicking as the sum of their parts whilst playing an evolved style of rugby. That is the wheel that Mckellar needs to square as we have the players at Tigers but we are not yet functioning as a team and his style of rugby has yet to be identifiable. Time will tell

I guess Baxter and his coaching team have worked with many of the players for years and had fewer on world cup duty.

We have had a series of new coaches over the past few years and, with more of our key players away at the world cup, not even a pre-season for the team to work with the coaches.

I think there was evidence of a style of attacking play with the backs, however the forwards were/are not functioning a unit as yet and not making the holes for the backs to exploit. Our defence again has not been good enough but without the disruptive players like Martin, Montoja and Reffell it is so much easier for the opposition to keep hold of the ball and continue to attack and probe the defence until gaps open up or penalties are conceded.

[RagingBull]

What is going on at Chiefs is interesting they have lost key players and replaced them with comparative new comers. Yet they are clicking as the sum of their parts whilst playing an evolved style of rugby. That is the wheel that Mckellar needs to square as we have the players at Tigers but we are not yet functioning as a team and his style of rugby has yet to be identifiable. Time will tell

The same chiefs who lost 34 -`19 to Saints last weekend and also lost to Quins?
Def benefitted from playing Sarries without any of their internationals.
They have certainly clicked don't get me wrong their game v Sale was very impressive.
But I still don't think they have evolved as much as you say,

Also the coaching team are extremely settled they know what to expect in the premiership.

[KiwiTig]

Fans asked for a more expansive game, but call "sack the coach" when it doesn't instantly click?

what more expansive game? We have one tactic, kick, if we'd seen a more expansive game it would be easier to wait and hear the same old tired excuses

It was fairly obvious when watching the game that we were more expansive in our attack. Lots more attacking shapes, variation and willingness to get wider compared to previous weeks.

The statistics also back this up - we made more carries than Quins, made more metres than Quins, made more passes than Quins, made double the amount of offloads than Quins, beat more defenders than Quins as well as kicked the same amount as Quins who are seen as one of the most attacking teams in the league.

We also had greater ruck success than Quins, won more rucks than Quins, and won more turnovers compared to Quins.

Our issue is that we dropped the ball at crucial times, costing us in defence and attack, as well as not being secure enough in our line out.

For all the noise on here, the statistics show that Saturday was nowhere near the disaster some like to portray. Raging Bull is also correct in that we lost 80% of our first team, with a new coaching side coming it. It's a pretty clear and obvious mitigation, unless you have an agenda.

Quite clearly results need to improve and sharpish, as do the performances but a bit of balance and perspective needs to be brought in here.

100% agree. If you watch the game by only watching the ball it’s very different to see what’s going on around it or 2 or more phases ahead. I welcome the change to bring in a dynamic ball to hand forward game that links up with equally dynamic backs. If you look carefully I’m sure that you will see this. Like a saddo I watch most games live with a wider “game” perspective and watch again on TV where I admit intend to follow the ball and pick up the general bias of the cameraman or commentators.

Rightly or wrongly I do try and form my own
subjective opinion

When McKellar can match his philosophy, which I welcome as an evolution of the Borthwick era, and he can do this with the players who can deliver it, then I’m confident we will see a very entertaining and successful new era.

I’m right behind it as it’s far too early to call for anyone’s head

[ourla]

Being brutally honest in all the years I've supported Leicester (and on here) the only thing I have called for is Winning Rugby
It matters not how....one point more than the opposition.Beginning.Middle .End.
This was how I was taught.This was how I played (semi pro , by the way) and this is how it will always be.
You get no points for style.

We had a player like you in our team (not rugby) in recent years. Once said in a team meeting that at the last match he was the only one trying. Another time in the pub after a game someone mentioned his sulky nature and he picked up his bag and walked out. We got rid in the end as he made things toxic.

Winning isn't, and shouldn't be, easy at any level.

Firstly , you neither know me or know how I played.
I have and do appreciate team values.
I have captained (elected, after independent nomination), coached and played at levels up to semi pro.
You make too many assumptions with regard to me as a person.

I consider myself realistic.As I say though , say what you see.
I would never, ever imply that 'winning was easy' - quite the contrary, in fact.
Anything and anyone is questionable and no one is perfect.
We (Leicester) play professional rugby and that carries with it responsibilities. If/when this is the case you should be prepared to both look at, criticize and understand. Wishing it away does not necessarily make it better neither, does overt rudeness because you do not like what someone has written.

You were quite clear an unequivocal in what you wrote in you first post. If it's a mischaracterisation, it's yours not mine.

Your second post seems to be taking a different tact. If nobody is perfect and it is not easy then I don't see how that squares with a 'winning is all that matters' mentality. To me, it's like saying 'making money is all that matters'. And there are people that seem to genuinely hold that view.

But let's agree that this is a miscommunication/misunderstanding and try to find some common ground. Would you not agree that if you put into place a new coaching team that regardless of the ability of the playing squad assembled time should be given to see results/winning? That doesn't mean to say that no criticism, or as I'd rather say it debate, should be had about performance. But it does take into account that DM is coming to a new country/league/team, not to mention the other coaches, and that is a factor in how we are performing and the results we are achieving.

[KiwiTig]

[kk20gb30]

We had a player like you in our team (not rugby) in recent years. Once said in a team meeting that at the last match he was the only one trying. Another time in the pub after a game someone mentioned his sulky nature and he picked up his bag and walked out. We got rid in the end as he made things toxic.

Winning isn't, and shouldn't be, easy at any level.

Firstly , you neither know me or know how I played.
I have and do appreciate team values.
I have captained (elected, after independent nomination), coached and played at levels up to semi pro.
You make too many assumptions with regard to me as a person.

I consider myself realistic.As I say though , say what you see.
I would never, ever imply that 'winning was easy' - quite the contrary, in fact.
Anything and anyone is questionable and no one is perfect.
We (Leicester) play professional rugby and that carries with it responsibilities. If/when this is the case you should be prepared to both look at, criticize and understand. Wishing it away does not necessarily make it better neither, does overt rudeness because you do not like what someone has written.

You were quite clear an unequivocal in what you wrote in you first post. If it's a mischaracterisation, it's yours not mine.

Your second post seems to be taking a different tact. If nobody is perfect and it is not easy then I don't see how that squares with a 'winning is all that matters' mentality. To me, it's like saying 'making money is all that matters'. And there are people that seem to genuinely hold that view.

But let's agree that this is a miscommunication/misunderstanding and try to find some common ground. Would you not agree that if you put into place a new coaching team that regardless of the ability of the playing squad assembled time should be given to see results/winning? That doesn't mean to say that no criticism, or as I'd rather say it debate, should be had about performance. But it does take into account that DM is coming to a new country/league/team, not to mention the other coaches, and that is a factor in how we are performing and the results we are achieving.

let me attempt to answer you without starting a further dispute.....
in any professional sport winning is all that matters - that is why it is professional , and that is why there are casualties when teams don't win.
I have never called for an expansive game - what I have called for is a pragmatic , winning approach .I could not care less if we bored the opposition stupid in winning the Premiership.Every game won by a point , a single point , is fine by me as a win is a win.Not talking cheating ,gamesmanship and the like although there is a fine line that some have blurred in the not too distant past.
I concur that Dan McKellar and his coaches face difficulties in terms of acclimatisation and personnel.He and we should know the score though.There are no free rides , though I do not believe he expects one.
No debate , we will improve - but lets face it with the absolute quality we have to return we cannot fail to.
What makes a coach/manager - call them as you will is the ability to lay down a pattern/framework and/or method.Talking the talk is one thing ,achieving it is another.I think McKellar knows this but so far despite knowing the circumstances of the season we have (to me) failed in this respect. Game plan ? Style ? Method ?
By all means , you tell me ?
It is not about when the internationals return its how we develop their understudies.In quality you will never or rarely get a like for like swap in terms of ability but the great strength of Sarries (over the years) and Borthwick is that the names may have changed but the playing signature remained unaltered.
Admittedly too, Saracens have had a stable coaching set up as have Exeter and so it seems every other successful side.Lets not kid ourselves though if either Sarries or Exeter had fallen flat on their faces during these periods both Mark Mccall and Rob Baxter would have been looking for other jobs.
Our new man, though I wish him well , is not beyond being put under the microscope, even now.

[ay2oh]

Preaching to knowledgeable supporters doesn’t make you right.

[jgriffin]

Preaching to knowledgeable supporters doesn’t make you right.

Amen bro.

[ourla]

in any professional sport winning is all that matters - that is why it is professional , and that is why there are casualties when teams don't win.

First off, this is far too simplistic. What is a win? Is it a win for the Club, the Head Coach, the head of S&C, the players - they are a part of a club/team but they may all have different goals. Even at a Club/Team level - we have had many a debate on here about what constitutes success (=winning?) for Leicester Tigers on a year by year basis. Not to mention on an individual basis (player xyz was voted player of the year so is a winner?). And also there is an Leicester (& other?) salutation "are you winning" meaning "are things going well". And and "professional" just really means you are paid to do it. There are even "journeyman professionals" who just pitch up here and there for short periods to "do a job". The concept of winning to them is an irrelevance.

I have never called for an expansive game

Why not? Quins won the Prem playing an expansive game.

- what I have called for is a pragmatic , winning approach

Sorry, absolutely nebulous concept. A winning approach is often not pragmatic. It depends. Marrying the two doesn't make sense.

I concur that Dan McKellar and his coaches face difficulties in terms of acclimatisation and personnel.He and we should know the score though.There are no free rides , though I do not believe he expects one.
No debate , we will improve - but lets face it with the absolute quality we have to return we cannot fail to.
What makes a coach/manager - call them as you will is the ability to lay down a pattern/framework and/or method.Talking the talk is one thing ,achieving it is another.I think McKellar knows this but so far despite knowing the circumstances of the season we have (to me) failed in this respect. Game plan ? Style ? Method ?
By all means , you tell me ?

At this stage IMO it is to early analysis this. I don't follow southern hemisphere rugby too much. I don't know a great deal about DM. It's a RWC year. The Prem has had an upheaval with 3 clubs going bust and players disseminating everywhere.

Anyhow let's agree to disagreeably for now. I am sure we both want to see Tigers winning plenty more matches than losing and for us to be challenging for trophies. It seems I just have a bit more relaxed approach to the scenario we are in.

[TigerFeetSteve]

https://youtu.be/9mXGSjnUvSM?si=pia-eHbUi8IRrZBY

This interview sums up for me well if professional sport (or any level of sport) is ALL about winning.

[Tiglon]

https://youtu.be/9mXGSjnUvSM?si=pia-eHbUi8IRrZBY

This interview sums up for me well if professional sport (or any level of sport) is ALL about winning.

I like this.

I always imagine a scenario where every player and coach in the Premiership does everything perfectly. 90% of them would still be deemed failures. On any given day in sport, someone has to lose, it doesn't mean they're bad at what they do.

When we're children we're taught how to lose (hopefully), because whatever you do, you won't always win in life. In the world of sports-supporting many of us seem to forget that and throw a tantrum every time our team loses.

If losing is truly unacceptable to someone, they are really not going to enjoy life.

[kk20gb30]

Preaching to knowledgeable supporters doesn’t make you right.

You may call it preaching , some ( I ) may call it giving an opinion.
Is this not what a Forum is about?
Or , does everyone have conform ?
You/we can argue back and forth till blue in the face but essentially we are all that set it makes no odds - no matter what argument is forwarded....

Blue is blue , green is green (unless you are colour blind)

I can agree and accept that people think differently. Can you do the same without the vitriol or sarcasm ?

[RagingBull]

Borthwick we won the league, but it felt like it was just the right time.
The season after we seemed pretty found out I thought, focus on defending the maul and pack and we had nothing really to offer.
Wigglesworth we looked better but how much was that a dead cat bounce?
I don't even think what McKeller is wanting is expansive rugby, he just wants us to be able to attack. Our backs just don't look ready for it. Only real attacking threats are two new guys in Kata and OHC.

Maul and lineouts is a worry but it wasn't going great without Montoya and Green last season either I thought. We are missing Greens experience either in game of on the training pitch to compete against I guess that's why Carter was signed to maybe help bridge.

On paper we got a much better squad than our current position suggests but I do feel we overachieved under Borthwick