Tigers v Quins (H) - Premiership - Saturday 11th November 2023 KO: 15:05

[Tiglon]

It was fairly obvious when watching the game that we were more expansive in our attack. Lots more attacking shapes, variation and willingness to get wider compared to previous weeks.

The statistics also back this up - we made more carries than Quins, made more metres than Quins, made more passes than Quins, made double the amount of offloads than Quins, beat more defenders than Quins as well as kicked the same amount as Quins who are seen as one of the most attacking teams in the league.

We also had greater ruck success than Quins, won more rucks than Quins, and won more turnovers compared to Quins.

Our issue is that we dropped the ball at crucial times, costing us in defence and attack, as well as not being secure enough in our line out.

For all the noise on here, the statistics show that Saturday was nowhere near the disaster some like to portray. Raging Bull is also correct in that we lost 80% of our first team, with a new coaching side coming it. It's a pretty clear and obvious mitigation, unless you have an agenda.

Quite clearly results need to improve and sharpish, as do the performances but a bit of balance and perspective needs to be brought in here.

Great post.

I feel everytime we lose there's an outcry about the kicking irrespective of what the kicking strategy is. Playing from our own half actually cost us a little bit at the weekend.

The irony is that Kelly dropped the ball trying to get the ball wide to a 3 man overlap. If he had ignored it and booted the ball down the field, many people on here would be up in arms but we would have gone in at HT in front and probably have won the game.

First rule of rugby on the internet:

Thou must not kick (or at least thou must not be perceived to kick, it doesn't really matter how much you actually kick).

[sapajo]

It was fairly obvious when watching the game that we were more expansive in our attack. Lots more attacking shapes, variation and willingness to get wider compared to previous weeks.

The statistics also back this up - we made more carries than Quins, made more metres than Quins, made more passes than Quins, made double the amount of offloads than Quins, beat more defenders than Quins as well as kicked the same amount as Quins who are seen as one of the most attacking teams in the league.

We also had greater ruck success than Quins, won more rucks than Quins, and won more turnovers compared to Quins.

Our issue is that we dropped the ball at crucial times, costing us in defence and attack, as well as not being secure enough in our line out.

For all the noise on here, the statistics show that Saturday was nowhere near the disaster some like to portray. Raging Bull is also correct in that we lost 80% of our first team, with a new coaching side coming it. It's a pretty clear and obvious mitigation, unless you have an agenda.

Quite clearly results need to improve and sharpish, as do the performances but a bit of balance and perspective needs to be brought in here.

Great post.

I feel everytime we lose there's an outcry about the kicking irrespective of what the kicking strategy is. Playing from our own half actually cost us a little bit at the weekend.

The irony is that Kelly dropped the ball trying to get the ball wide to a 3 man overlap. If he had ignored it and booted the ball down the field, many people on here would be up in arms but we would have gone in at HT in front and probably have won the game.

Well Kelly in the second half decided to kick the ball away with a support runner inside him. It was a brain dead kick that rebounded off a Quins player and we ended up scuttling backwards.

[AViewFromLe2]

Great post.

I feel everytime we lose there's an outcry about the kicking irrespective of what the kicking strategy is. Playing from our own half actually cost us a little bit at the weekend.

The irony is that Kelly dropped the ball trying to get the ball wide to a 3 man overlap. If he had ignored it and booted the ball down the field, many people on here would be up in arms but we would have gone in at HT in front and probably have won the game.

Well Kelly in the second half decided to kick the ball away with a support runner inside him. It was a brain dead kick that rebounded off a Quins player and we ended up scuttling backwards.

That's cool but it didn't cost us the game. Neither does it answer the point that supposedly we kick too much, yet kicked the same amount as one of the most attacking teams in the league, whilst having better attack stats.

We supposedly kick too much yet kicked as much as Quins. We apparently don't show any ambition yet we had better attacking stats. We want a running game yet we criticise the team for making errors when trying to attack more.

There is a major difference between narratives on here and what actually is happening.

[sapajo]

Excellent points the problem for me is not the kicking game per say it's the aimlessly kicking of the ball away when we should be keeping it in hand.

[Terracetiger4]

The irony is that Kelly dropped the ball trying to get the ball wide to a 3 man overlap. If he had ignored it and booted the ball down the field, many people on here would be up in arms but we would have gone in at HT in front and probably have won the game.

Well Kelly in the second half decided to kick the ball away with a support runner inside him. It was a brain dead kick that rebounded off a Quins player and we ended up scuttling backwards.

That's cool but it didn't cost us the game. Neither does it answer the point that supposedly we kick too much, yet kicked the same amount as one of the most attacking teams in the league, whilst having better attack stats.

We supposedly kick too much yet kicked as much as Quins. We apparently don't show any ambition yet we had better attacking stats. We want a running game yet we criticise the team for making errors when trying to attack more.

There is a major difference between narratives on here and what actually is happening.

I think people are just frustrated. After the game on Saturday i was annoyed/angry that we’ve got to the point now where we’re in must win every week situation.

I’ve mellowed now after a few days and while the performance on Saturday offered glimpses. The fact is there’s still a lot left to click. We seem to play a bit like a jack of all trades and master of none… we kick away a lot but our kick defence isn’t up to scratch and is largely lethargic. We try to play quick and wide but our backs don’t have the shape or the hands to hurt the opposition.

I’m also questioning the recruitment a little to be honest.

[ay2oh]

Regarding recruitment I think OHC, Shilcock , Hatherall, and Kata are good business but not sure about the others but time will tell.

[Tiglon]

In terms of recruitment, I would assume that keeping hold of the young internationals who have broken through in the last year or two makes it difficult to make big signings.

For me the squad is strong and, with time, should be able to compete at the top of the Premiership.

[ourla]

Being brutally honest in all the years I've supported Leicester (and on here) the only thing I have called for is Winning Rugby
It matters not how....one point more than the opposition.Beginning.Middle .End.
This was how I was taught.This was how I played (semi pro , by the way) and this is how it will always be.
You get no points for style.

We had a player like you in our team (not rugby) in recent years. Once said in a team meeting that at the last match he was the only one trying. Another time in the pub after a game someone mentioned his sulky nature and he picked up his bag and walked out. We got rid in the end as he made things toxic.

Winning isn't, and shouldn't be, easy at any level.

[ourla]

'Offside' and 'Sapajo' make very valid points about Saracens and their coaching team. It's also true that they keep the same core of senior players season after season. Whereas we lose players like Genge, Moroni, Ford and Potter and seem to have to start again with a largely fresh team every season.

I mentioned it aswell. Undoubtedly a factor. You see it across sports. There are exceptions that prove the rule but generally speaking stability and continuity are important aswell as the obvious stuff.

[ourla]

Fair post Terracetiger4 - but see above, it shouldn't be a surprise.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Regarding recruitment I think OHC, Shilcock , Hatherall, and Kata are good business but not sure about the others but time will tell.

So what we're saying is the planned recruitment has gone well, the scrabble to pick up LI players when most salary cap is committed is jury's out.

For me that shows our recruitment is good. Clubs going under is completely uncontrollable from our point & odds are those who left things late and weren't that good at recruitment get the best deals...

[Terracetiger4]

Regarding recruitment I think OHC, Shilcock , Hatherall, and Kata are good business but not sure about the others but time will tell.

So what we're saying is the planned recruitment has gone well, the scrabble to pick up LI players when most salary cap is committed is jury's out.

For me that shows our recruitment is good. Clubs going under is completely uncontrollable from our point & odds are those who left things late and weren't that good at recruitment get the best deals...

I think you look at who the best players from Irish and where they went to and I would say they were about at cap limit before and managed to squeeze them in. Of course we’re not privy to conversations had we might of tried to sign a couple of different players and ended up with the players we did but I do feel with the three clubs going bust we weren’t savy and forward planning enough.

[RunTigerRun]

Regarding recruitment I think OHC, Shilcock , Hatherall, and Kata are good business but not sure about the others but time will tell.

So what we're saying is the planned recruitment has gone well, the scrabble to pick up LI players when most salary cap is committed is jury's out.

For me that shows our recruitment is good. Clubs going under is completely uncontrollable from our point & odds are those who left things late and weren't that good at recruitment get the best deals...

I think you look at who the best players from Irish and where they went to and I would say they were about at cap limit before and managed to squeeze them in. Of course we’re not privy to conversations had we might of tried to sign a couple of different players and ended up with the players we did but I do feel with the three clubs going bust we weren’t savy and forward planning enough.

I agree. I think Rogerson was probably one that will work in the long run. We were rumoured to be talking with him before Irish went under. He does suit our play and will hopefully allow Liebenberg some rotation at 6 (just not playing at the same time in an unbalanced backrow). Rogerson, Reffell and Wiese/Hatherell for example I think would work pretty well.

Powell for me seems a bit panic buy in the sense that he was available suddenly, he knew McKellar already and was in a position where we thought we’d be short. This was before JVP got injured so at least we assumed we’d be short of both Lenny and JVP until November. I don’t know what’s happened with Powell as others said he was a stand out in the PRC but has looked a shadow of that in the Prem. I almost hope he was a 1 year deal and won’t be renewed, but with rumours of Lenny’s retirement at season end I’m a bit concerned it might be longer with the view to have JVP, Powell, Whiteley, Edwards, Allan for next year until Edwards and Allan push on. For me I’d rather Lenny stay for another year and Powell move on but I don’t control recruitment. Still think either keeping Sam Wolstenholme or going after Will Porter would have been a more shrewd 9 but there you go.

The rest of the recruitment has been good I think. Players in positions we need where they are either good now, or have the potential to be. The ones we keep next year and the areas and styles we sign for next year will be telling in terms of McKellar’s team and also the style we want to play.

[markharbtiger]

Things are not clicking. Some players do not seem to have a left and a fight hand. Some is rust, some is new things to think about whilst running in new patterns and some is now probably trying too hard and not relaxing into the flow. DM has a good pedigree and win record previously. We do need to be patient. SB had a bad development season, a title winning season and then we dipped form. The salary cap levels the playing field a lot. Sarries shows well what a stable coaching set up can bring, regardless of other issues. Lets support and see what the season brings. More change would not be positive.

Agree. We forget perhaps that SB's first season wasn't stellar, and there is a lot to be said for coaching stability. The coaching team at Tigers has only been set for a couple of weeks with the arrival of Dan Palmer...so very early days. It takes time to settle into a foreign country too.
IMHO the player quality at Tigers is very high: the number of current and past internationals, the good quality club players and the youngsters coming through. In fact, perhaps arguably too high with a number of extremely good players at certain positions fighting for game time. A nice problem to have perhaps.
Finding a way to work together - coaches and players - is what it's all about. I have no doubt that things will get better, it's just a matter of how fast.

[kk20gb30]

Being brutally honest in all the years I've supported Leicester (and on here) the only thing I have called for is Winning Rugby
It matters not how....one point more than the opposition.Beginning.Middle .End.
This was how I was taught.This was how I played (semi pro , by the way) and this is how it will always be.
You get no points for style.

What’s it like in your little world. My wife will tell you nobody hates losing more than me but life is not that simple. Whilst I would love for Tigers to win every game they play you need to be realistic. We have a new coach and have played 4 games whilst missing 13 of our best 23 players. Even on Saturday we were still missing Montoya, Martin, Reffell , OHC , JVP . Really don’t know what you expect and as a semi pro and assuming you still made mistakes.

Please don't give me the 'your little world' routine...
Opinions are opinions and my own opinion is at least as valid as yours. Or would you question that ?
Yes, we are missing players ....
Read (all) of what I have written , in this post instead of picking on one aspect of it... We will improve because of who we have waiting to return , no question. This however due to what ? The players own quality or that of the coaching ?
Again , time will tell.
Give it a chance ? Yes. But have reservations on the strength of what we have witnessed thus far ? Also Yes .

Answer me though : have we played to either our (collective) expectations or supposed abilities ?

Again , read the pre season hype (which incidentally I played no part in).

Yes too, we and I make, have made and will continue to make mistakes. But I sure as hell try not to compound the or make excuses.
Unlike many - on here or in life in general.