Scott1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:53 pm
How many refs,TMO ,touch judges etc do we believe read this forum?
They don't, but people who have more extreme views may well do, they may well feel there is some level of vindication and backing for their viewpoint from criticism online (that doesn't cross a line) then they take it too far.
Not saying ref's shouldn't be criticised, but we need to not push boundaries as it will encourage people who cross it.
In the same way (and apologies to Yanks who may not get this) gun control laws here are not because of the 95% of people who if given a gun would use it sensibly, they are written to prevent the 5% doing something stupid. The same goes with online criticism, 95% can write something critical but non offensive using the mask of an anonymous online account, but 5% may make it offensive. It's about setting rules that the 5% who would be stupid can't damage the situation.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Scott1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:53 pm
How many refs,TMO ,touch judges etc do we believe read this forum?
They don't, but people who have more extreme views may well do, they may well feel there is some level of vindication and backing for their viewpoint from criticism online (that doesn't cross a line) then they take it too far.
Not saying ref's shouldn't be criticised, but we need to not push boundaries as it will encourage people who cross it.
In the same way (and apologies to Yanks who may not get this) gun control laws here are not because of the 95% of people who if given a gun would use it sensibly, they are written to prevent the 5% doing something stupid. The same goes with online criticism, 95% can write something critical but non offensive using the mask of an anonymous online account, but 5% may make it offensive. It's about setting rules that the 5% who would be stupid can't damage the situation.
People who already are extreme in their views won’t need a leg up by seeing soft criticism. They will go on attack for what the ref has done or the act itself, not because they’ve seen that someone has already got the ball rolling with some fair criticism. That’s how I see it anyway so I’m ok with constructive criticism and will continue to do that myself.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Scott1 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:53 pm
How many refs,TMO ,touch judges etc do we believe read this forum?
They don't, but people who have more extreme views may well do, they may well feel there is some level of vindication and backing for their viewpoint from criticism online (that doesn't cross a line) then they take it too far.
Not saying ref's shouldn't be criticised, but we need to not push boundaries as it will encourage people who cross it.
In the same way (and apologies to Yanks who may not get this) gun control laws here are not because of the 95% of people who if given a gun would use it sensibly, they are written to prevent the 5% doing something stupid. The same goes with online criticism, 95% can write something critical but non offensive using the mask of an anonymous online account, but 5% may make it offensive. It's about setting rules that the 5% who would be stupid can't damage the situation.
I did see something where Pearce and one of the French refs, Raynal possibly, said they were in favour of refs talking to the press after games to explain any contentious decisions.
As for your other point of course this is how radicalism starts the slow drip feed until the pressure increases
Just a quick example and Im not picking on football but will use an example from that game. If there’s a fan at a game who disagrees with a refs decision and starts swearing at him or flicking the Vs or using other hand gestures has he done that because he’s seen someone else do it or do something “softer” first? I’d say no. That same person is very likely to swear at the TV in the pub or even swear at his own TV if he was watching the game on his own. Hes also very likely to post obscene stuff on a forum or a blog. My point is that it’s very unlikely ,not saying it doesn’t happen at all,that someone will start going to extremes just because he’s seen some constructive criticism first.I can’t get on board with that I’m afraid but I absolutely agree that it does go too far and needs stamping out!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
It should have been nipped in the bud when Erasmus put up that video. A 2 month ban was nowhere near enough to make a point.
All that did was say to fans that if he can use social media to attack refs then so can anyone else but, of course, some people use different methods to others and now here we are.
I cannot help but feel that some nations especially bait their fans into kicking up a storm on social media and, whilst society has a lot to look at itself for when it comes to these things, I cannot help but feel that it was the Erasmus video that opened the floodgates.
GB72 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:43 am
It should have been nipped in the bud when Erasmus put up that video. A 2 month ban was nowhere near enough to make a point.
All that did was say to fans that if he can use social media to attack refs then so can anyone else but, of course, some people use different methods to others and now here we are.
I cannot help but feel that some nations especially bait their fans into kicking up a storm on social media and, whilst society has a lot to look at itself for when it comes to these things, I cannot help but feel that it was the Erasmus video that opened the floodgates.
That didn’t help but there was certainly abuse before that ,sometimes and i don’t know why,I will venture onto the BBC Rugby comments for a read. Buckle up if anyone ever does!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
GB72 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:43 am
It should have been nipped in the bud when Erasmus put up that video. A 2 month ban was nowhere near enough to make a point.
All that did was say to fans that if he can use social media to attack refs then so can anyone else but, of course, some people use different methods to others and now here we are.
I cannot help but feel that some nations especially bait their fans into kicking up a storm on social media and, whilst society has a lot to look at itself for when it comes to these things, I cannot help but feel that it was the Erasmus video that opened the floodgates.
That didn’t help but there was certainly abuse before that ,sometimes and i don’t know why,I will venture onto the BBC Rugby comments for a read. Buckle up if anyone ever does!
Certainly not denying it existed before and maybe we would be where we are irrespective but there was an opportunity for World Rugby to make a point and set an example and I cannot help but think that a far sterner punishment then could have had an impact (it could also have made things worse and set off a tirade of social media abuse from a national team feeling like victims).
Sadly the online attitude of the fans of some teams is awful but I almost feel that in certain circumstances it is, if not actually encouraged, it is certainly not overtly criticised.
GB72 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:43 am
It should have been nipped in the bud when Erasmus put up that video. A 2 month ban was nowhere near enough to make a point.
All that did was say to fans that if he can use social media to attack refs then so can anyone else but, of course, some people use different methods to others and now here we are.
I cannot help but feel that some nations especially bait their fans into kicking up a storm on social media and, whilst society has a lot to look at itself for when it comes to these things, I cannot help but feel that it was the Erasmus video that opened the floodgates.
That didn’t help but there was certainly abuse before that ,sometimes and i don’t know why,I will venture onto the BBC Rugby comments for a read. Buckle up if anyone ever does!
Certainly not denying it existed before and maybe we would be where we are irrespective but there was an opportunity for World Rugby to make a point and set an example and I cannot help but think that a far sterner punishment then could have had an impact (it could also have made things worse and set off a tirade of social media abuse from a national team feeling like victims).
Sadly the online attitude of the fans of some teams is awful but I almost feel that in certain circumstances it is, if not actually encouraged, it is certainly not overtly criticised.
Agree on all points
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Jimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:54 pm
I've said it for years, football refs don't help themselves
And that statement there is why there is a problem.
Absolutely - and deflecting the problem by taking about social media companies doesn’t help either. Personal responsibility is where it starts - and could end.
I get there’s a difference between ‘extreme’ threats of violence and the sort of moaning about officials that is common on this and other forums - but anyone who does this is also part of the problem. To those who think it’s OK - that they’re perfectly entitled to criticise referees and put it in the public - I wonder how they’d feel about others turning up at their place of work and hurling abuse.
call that a spreadsheet? It’s a joke - you’re the worst finance officer in the company. You should be sacked!
.
There’s a simple process to follow when posting online about individuals:
1. Write it
2. Read it
3. Decide whether you’d be happy to say it to their face. If Yes, post it, if No, delete and try again.
Personal responsibility is great, but most of the population have no idea what that means, so talking about that isn't going to help. There will always be people who want to abuse others, and social media gives them a safe and easy place to do it.
I work in hospitality, so people do turn up at my place and hurl abuse. They also do it online. I accept criticism when presented in a reasonable and polite manner, and understand that people can get emotional when things go wrong. I'm certainly not going to need to take a break for my mental health every time someone puts a bad review on tripadvisor, but I'm pretty angry when there are threats or abuse, so I can fully understand how players and officials feel about that - although they undoubtedly receive those things far more regularly and intensely than I do.
As an ex-teacher who reffed both rugby and football school matches - I will give you this example. I also trained the U14 rugby team and we won the county cup many many years ago at Oabdy Wiggs ground.
Several of the students played both sports at the school level and of course, were watched by their parents. These parents were all excellent at the rugby matches and offered real support to their children and the very same parents became like Jekyll and Hyde models when they attended football matches, questioning many decisions I made very vocally. In one match I had to stop reffing the football game to remonstrate with one particular dad and told him in no uncertain terms about the image he was projecting to his son and he must stop. Did he? Of course not, so I again stopped the match and told him if he continued with his abuse either he would leave the school grounds or I would cancel the match. Did he? Of course not and I told him to leave the campus. The following day he came into school and apologised to me but said it was hard not to stop doing what he did at the city matches. He came to the next football match with his wife who kept him under control and I congratulated both her and him for the change
Jimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:54 pm
I've said it for years, football refs don't help themselves
And that statement there is why there is a problem.
please elaborate...
Essentially you are saying they deserve the abuse.
You might not think that is what you are saying - but you are.
I've had to work with people I don't like or people that I didn't think were very good at the job. And at appraisal time if asked I would state say and why. What I wouldn't do is scream in their face or abuse them online.
ourla wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:11 pm
And that statement there is why there is a problem.
please elaborate...
Essentially you are saying they deserve the abuse.
You might not think that is what you are saying - but you are.
I've had to work with people I don't like or people that I didn't think were very good at the job. And at appraisal time if asked I would state say and why. What I wouldn't do is scream in their face or abuse them online.
Not at all I was talking about dealing with player behaviour within play hence the examples you chopped out.
If prem refs start complaining about squint feeds in the scrum well whose fault is that after years of not reffing it?
Football refs have complained about diving making things more difficult so I gave my examples all from one match as to why players HAVE to do so and why the refs don’t help themselves.
People in football have also talked about making it a law of the game that only the captain can talk to the ref so I pointed out the booking of our captain for asking for an explanation after showing teammates away, which is self defeating.
I have great respect for the job of refs but in football I find them to be arrogantly dismissive especially compared to the Rugby counterparts.
When I was a child my dad reffed, got to level 3 but age and a hearing issue prevented him progressing after he finished playing, players loved him as he’d played to a good standard and would chat with them and it defused a lot of issues
Jimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:35 am
I have great respect for the job of refs but in football I find them to be arrogantly dismissive especially compared to the Rugby counterparts.
#1 - you've literally just done it again - made a statement that suggests they deserve the lack of respect and abuse they get.
Jimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:35 am
I have great respect for the job of refs but in football I find them to be arrogantly dismissive especially compared to the Rugby counterparts.
#1 - you've literally just done it again - made a statement that suggests they deserve the lack of respect and abuse they get.
#2 - rugby refs are getting abused also.
not at all but actions have consequences, I understand that do you? I'm also talking about players not idiots on social media who would dare say anything if face to face. Rugby refs have an open dialog with players, thus players behave better with refs.
Respect is both earned and a 2 way street, if you act like you are above someone simply because you have a whistle people will not respect you, I saw this with my own eyes, when I was young I would go watch my dad ref, there were often multiple games going on, I would see how he was treating and treated by the player compared to others, he was treated with far more respect because he treated others with that same respect.
Other refs are far too concerned with being seen to be in charge than simply being in charge, I'll never forget that he used to tell the players my job now is to stop you lot doing what I used to get away with and they would smirk and have laugh with him.
I'm currently listening to Wayne Barnes autobiography audio book he talks about the need to engage with players and yes when to turn a deaf ear to certain comments
