Old Hob wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:59 pm
I, too, thought dummies had been outlawed as they were a cheap and unappealing way of getting a penalty. I agree with a lot of the comments about the caterpillar, originally designed, I think, merely to provide more protection for the 9. Ref calls "ball available" and no-one else can join. Now, if too few have joined and there's a good counter resulting in a turnover... that would be a plus for me.
Dummies where you pretend to reach to pass the ball out is outlawed.
However twiching your shoulders and looking up to "scan" what pass is on is perfectly acceptable. See examples like
1. Ben Youngs immediately before passing to Burns for a drop goal in a prem final.
Or more recently both Spencer and Powell won penalties for their respective teams in the Bath Tigers game on Saturday doing it.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Old Hob wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 7:59 pm
I, too, thought dummies had been outlawed as they were a cheap and unappealing way of getting a penalty. I agree with a lot of the comments about the caterpillar, originally designed, I think, merely to provide more protection for the 9. Ref calls "ball available" and no-one else can join. Now, if too few have joined and there's a good counter resulting in a turnover... that would be a plus for me.
Dummies where you pretend to reach to pass the ball out is outlawed.
However twiching your shoulders and looking up to "scan" what pass is on is perfectly acceptable. See examples like
1. Ben Youngs immediately before passing to Burns for a drop goal in a prem final.
Or more recently both Spencer and Powell won penalties for their respective teams in the Bath Tigers game on Saturday doing it.
That’s what we are saying what you have described is a dummy. It is looking to buy a penalty no better than deliberately passing the ball into a retreating player imo.
I think we are all looking to speed the game and reduce the number of penalties. As others have mentioned it shouldn’t be hard to officiate the laws already exist
TigerFeetSteve wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:56 am
Here's an idea to reduce territorial kicking (and thus caterpillar rucks) it wouldn't eliminate it, just make it less beneficial.
Allow the mark to be called up to the 10 not just the 22.
Only just had the idea now so not thought through consequences etc, but to my mind it would devalue kicking it away
It may not reduce the number of kicks but make contested kicks the aim so it is hard to call a mark. A mark means once caught the opposition cannot compete for the ball so attacking turnovers and pressure would be reduced. Kicking to get the opposition to kick short or drop the ball would still be a tactic. The pressure would be reduced on the kicker though. All the team should be behind the player when they kick after the mark so it would slow the game down as the players trundle back to get onside.
Having the ball out line the back of the original ruck once the ref calls ruck could work. New players could join to defend a counter ruck but once the ball moved back there would be no offside line. Making offside a free kick rather than penalty but still potential yellow card for repeated offences could avoid scrum halves milking penalties.
A little while ago, someone on here suggested that 9's should be allowed to dummy. However, once they had, the ball is out and they're fair game. Like starting the run up for a kick.
loretta wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:35 am
A little while ago, someone on here suggested that 9's should be allowed to dummy. However, once they had, the ball is out and they're fair game. Like starting the run up for a kick.
Thing is what counts as a dummy. If the ball is stuck most 9's dig it out then look up to see where to pass it. You'll have people claiming every upward motion is a dummy.
What Youngs did for Burns or what Spencer and Powell did well was NOT (IMO) a dummy it was making their other movements to look around be similar to their triggers to pass it. You can't penalise a 9 who's had to go digging for looking up.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
loretta wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:35 am
A little while ago, someone on here suggested that 9's should be allowed to dummy. However, once they had, the ball is out and they're fair game. Like starting the run up for a kick.
Thing is what counts as a dummy. If the ball is stuck most 9's dig it out then look up to see where to pass it. You'll have people claiming every upward motion is a dummy.
What Youngs did for Burns or what Spencer and Powell did well was NOT (IMO) a dummy it was making their other movements to look around be similar to their triggers to pass it. You can't penalise a 9 who's had to go digging for looking up.
I agree but there also 9s that will make voluntary movements of their shoulders just before picking the ball up to get defenders off balance or draw them offside which can only be described as a dummy and is often followed by the ref warning them about it. They know the laws no warning just penalise them
My problem is the ref telling defenders to leave the ball at a ruck. Just penalise them, you probably will get an increase in penalties to start with but hope the players would learn. This should let the ball be available quicker.
Refs should be there to ref the game not coach the players what is legal.
Easy to eliminate the dummy. As I think was mentioned just say that when the scrum half puts their hand on the ball it's out.
So the ball is presented, so nobody can joint the ruck or challenge. The scrum half can roll it back out with their foot if they want but once they touch it with a hand, they have to play.
As someone mentioned it, what would be the downside of NOT allowing a mark to be called?
It's another thing that often slows the game down and means everybody resets.
I guess it penalises a team that kicks and overdoes it? But is that such an issue. It already means an easy catch and space if the kick is too deep....
ourla wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:39 am
As someone mentioned it, what would be the downside of NOT allowing a mark to be called?
It's another thing that often slows the game down and means everybody resets.
I guess it penalises a team that kicks and overdoes it? But is that such an issue. It already means an easy catch and space if the kick is too deep....
Yes,getting rid of the mark UNLESS it’s called in an aerial competition would be a great idea
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Farmboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:00 am
My problem is the ref telling defenders to leave the ball at a ruck. Just penalise them, you probably will get an increase in penalties to start with but hope the players would learn. This should let the ball be available quicker.
Refs should be there to ref the game not coach the players what is legal.
Always my view. Is it down to the 'Police' to coach the villains?
As an ex SH, I was allowed to dummy, but that was a long time ago, as soon as it was in my hands, I was fair game and had to get rid very quickly or pain would follow. The off-side call that followed was usually taken as a quick tap and go as no one in the team could kick for a goal from longer than about 40 yards. Today the kickers can achieve over 50 yards with relative ease. I totally agree with the sentiment that a simple call by the ref of "ball available" - no one else is allowed to join the ruck. All waiting for the lift does is slow down the game and allow the defence to get set.
