Tigers v Sale (H) - Premiership - Saturday 21st October 2023 KO:15:05

[TigerFeetSteve]

Ok disastrous start, some (very few) positives though so lets build on them.
For me lets look to move on and put stuff behind us.

Brown
Bassett
Cokanasiga
Kelly
Hassell-Collins
Shillcock
Whiteley
Van Wyk
Dolly
Heyes
Carter
Henderson
Liebenberg
Ilione
Hatherall

Clare
Cronin
Hurd
Wells
Cracknell
Powell
Atkinson
Kata


Think with Kata having never played with the guys before it's too soon for him to start, but would like to see him on the bench.

Also Whiteley, Hatherall & Shillcock were all positives so I'd look to start them. I'd also pull in Carter too. Ilione is the other change I'd make.

If SA are out the world cup then I will change my team as Handre will be at 10 and Shillcock at 15...

[Offside]

Is Porter injured? If not I think he needs more time rather than less. Illione is the obvious addition to me. We need hunger and breakdown threat. That was lacking today.

[RunTigerRun]

I know it may not be the opinion of some on here but I’d like to see a few changes but largely give the guys a chance to react and put in a performance. They weren’t bad players playing tonight - just not getting it right on the night.

I’d like to see something like this for Sale:

15 - Shillcock
14 - Bassett
13 - Cokanasiga
12 - Kelly
11 - Hassell-Collins
10 - Atkinson
9 - Whiteley
8 - Hatherell
7 - Ilione
6 - Liebenberg
5 - Wells
4 - Henderson
3 - Heyes
2 - Clare
1 - van Wyk

16 - Dolly
17 - Whitcombe
18 - Hurd
19 - Carter
20 - Rogerson / Cracknell
21 - Edwards
22 - Porter
23 - Kata

Reasoning:

Let Shillcock and Atkinson double pivot. At Wasps when Atkinson played his best he had Umaga at 15 and Gopperth and 12. Let Kelly and Shillcock come into 1st receiver a bit and allow Atkinson to have some more time to make decisions and to play. He made a couple of nice passes tonight (inc one miss pass to OHC that was a peach but was snuffed out by good Bris defence) and has looked good in preseason. Brown looked a little leggy and whilst he was solid, I think trying Shillcock and Atkinson is the right way to go.

Cokanasiga looked quick and powerful in pre season and Porter looked a little out of sorts last night. Give Phil the chance to start and show what he can do and let Guy come on hungry and to add some impetus (alongside Kata who I think will add some much needed punch in midfield and on the wing - get Porter and Kata to rotate between wing and centre for me, keep Sale guessing).

Whiteley added some zip when he came on and his darting round the fringes added something different. Yes it didn’t come off a few times and he got caught or made the wrong call, but it changed the point of attack and brought players onto the ball into some space or on a soft shoulder (I.e. the Liebenberg try).

Hatherell added carrying when he came in so deserves a start. Ilione rewarded for a good pre-season and for some jackal threat which I think we missed tonight too. Rogerson and Cracknell didn’t do much wrong, but I think Rogerson and Hanro are very similar so having both starting is a risk. Toss up between Rogerson and Cracknell for the bench spot.

Leave the tight 5 as is and give them a chance to bounce back after being bullied by Bristol in the first 40.

Bench largely speaks for itself - Carter for Williams for some leadership late in the game and a bit more in terms of a lineout lock. You lose a bit in the carry as Williams carried well off the bench tonight but I think the leadership and onfield coaching is invaluable.

Powell looked nervous and a bit poor to me so why not give Edwards a shot from the bench? Then Porter and Kata as explained above.

It’s not perfect and even if we get players back from the WC I doubt we’ll see them next week (unless maybe Handre as he’s already had some time in the group and systems).

I still think DMK and the team are the right fit, but we needed a proper test to see where we are at and tonight we got it. Work to do, but some green shoots in there.

Let’s let the MWWR crowd get behind to team and start strong at home vs Sale!

[Terracetiger4]

Is Porter injured? If not I think he needs more time rather than less. Illione is the obvious addition to me. We need hunger and breakdown threat. That was lacking today.

He’s just not that good.

[TTRITH]

He’s just not that good.

One bad match, one game into the season and he's not that good anymore...?

15. Jamie Shillcock
14. Josh Bassett
13. Guy Porter
12. Dan Kelly
11. Ollie Hassel-Collins
10. Charlie Atkinson
9. Tom Whiteley
1. Francois Van Wyk
2. Nic Dolly
3. Will Hurd
4. Cameron Henderson
5. Sam Carter
6. Hanro Liebenberg
7. Emeka Ilione
8. Kyle Hetherall

16. Charlie Claire
17. James Whitcombe
18. Joe Heyes
19. Harry Wells
20. Ollie Cracknell
21. Joe Powell
22. Mike Brown
23. Solomone Kata

That back line needs time to gel but I also think that Atkinson would benefit a lot from having Shilcock also in that back lane. Kelly and Porter were a great partnership once given time, so we need to give them a chance, Kata on the bench opens the opportunity to really change the game if needed.

I was really disappointed in Heyes last night. I know a lot of players had a bad game, but he seemed slow, lathergic and uninterested, and kept giving away stupid penalties. He has a couple of weeks to show that Dan Cole doesn't walk back into this side, but on that showing last night, I'd be tempted to punt with Hurd.

If England and South Africa lose this weekend, I'd replace Brown with Pollard, and be very tempted to include Youngs and Steward on the bench as well.

[RunTigerRun]

Perhaps not for the Sale game, but I wonder if once everyone is back we might try a backline of:

Steward
Bassett / Watson?
Kelly
Kata
OHC
Pollard
JVP/Youngs

Youngs/Powell/Whiteley
Shillcock
Porter/Scott/Bassett

Kelly and Kata would be a nice combination of power, passing, defence and probably cause defenders a headache.

I know Kelly is more or less only played at 12 but actually he could do a nice Lozowski / Slade role (in their prime) at 13?

[RagingBull]

I saw someone mention Atkinson playing his best rugby with Umaga at 15, on the Bristol thread and it makes a lot of sense.
Would prob help build his confidence up at the same time.

Having that second playmaker type does seem to really help teams. AB's showed it v Ireland who IMO don't really have a second playmaker.

[RunTigerRun]

I saw someone mention Atkinson playing his best rugby with Umaga at 15, on the Bristol thread and it makes a lot of sense.
Would prob help build his confidence up at the same time.

Having that second playmaker type does seem to really help teams. AB's showed it v Ireland who IMO don't really have a second playmaker.

Yeh I massively agree. Plus Pollard seemed very comfortable with Gopperth at 12 as an additional playmaker and has worked well with Le Roux at 15 for the Boks…

I know Steward is 1st choice 15 when all fit, but with rotation and the 6N I’d love to see Pollard and Shillcock to have that Le Roux style backline.

Having a power runner like Kata will help Atkinson too I think as that gives (or likely gives) some front foot ball to play off.

[Rugbygramps]

Injury and post World Cup availability allowing I’m going

Shilcock
Bassett
Porter
Kelly
OHC
Atkinson
Whitely
Cronin
Dolly
Heyes
Henderson
Wells
Liebenberg
Reffell
Hatherall

Bench : Claire Whitcombe Hurd Chessum Rogerson Powell Kata Brown

[ay2oh]

Injury and post World Cup availability allowing I’m going

Shilcock
Bassett
Porter
Kelly
OHC
Atkinson
Whitely
Cronin
Dolly
Heyes
Henderson
Wells
Liebenberg
Reffell
Hatherall

Bench : Claire Whitcombe Hurd Chessum Rogerson Powell Kata Brown

Wouldn’t disagree with that side. Too bad SA won otherwise we would have had Wiese and Pollard

[GB72]

Injury and post World Cup availability allowing I’m going

Shilcock
Bassett
Porter
Kelly
OHC
Atkinson
Whitely
Cronin
Dolly
Heyes
Henderson
Wells
Liebenberg
Reffell
Hatherall

Bench : Claire Whitcombe Hurd Chessum Rogerson Powell Kata Brown

Wouldn’t disagree with that side. Too bad SA won otherwise we would have had Wiese and Pollard

And the ridiculous non event that is the third place playoff means that none of our players will be back until after the final in 2 weeks. Even then I suspect Youngs may be the only one able to head straight back into the squad. I suspect it will be nearly December before we see some of our players.

[ABClub]

Having that second playmaker type does seem to really help teams. AB's showed it v Ireland who IMO don't really have a second playmaker.

I'd argue it's almost necessary against modern defences. Ireland are about the only team to get a functioning attack without a standout second playmaker. That required them getting Hansen, Ringrose and Keenan adept at stepping in as makeshift playmakers though. Hansen going off was a huge blow in that regard. His cross field kick to Sheehan is a bounce of the ball from shifting that game. They also developed possibly the best drilled systems that rugby has seen which allowed them to use forwards at first receiver better than any other team.

Even then the ABs, likely through Joe Schmidt, found a way to stop it. Instead of blitzing on their one playmaker to pressure Sexton like most sides do they pressured the options off him. Blitzing hard on Sexton's runners and out the back options. They gave Sexton time and space but starved the options around him of both. Really interesting stuff that I expect more teams will implement going forward.

NZ with Mo'unga, Beauden and Jordie. SA with Libbok/Pollard and Willemse/le Roux. France with Jalibert/Ntamackh and Ramos, plus the anomaly that is Dupont of course. Scotland had Russell and Hogg, now Kinghorn. Italy have started using Garbisi and Allan together. Even Portugal's impressive attack had Guedes at 15 as a cracking distributor and kicker.

It does feel we are at a stage where defences are so strong that it's basically necessary to have two playmakers capable of playing 10 in order to break them down consistently.

[ABClub]

As for Sale. I'd go with:

1.Whitcombe 2.Dolly 3.Hurd 4.Wells 5.Henderson 6.Hatherell 7.Reffell 8.Hanro (c)
9.Whiteley 10.Atkinson 11.OHC 12.Kelly 13.Porter 14.Bassett 15.Shillcock

16.Clare 17.van Wyk 18.Heyes 19.Carter 20.Cracknell 21.Powell 22.Kata 23.Brown

I thought van Wyk played well last weekend. I also feel his skills could be really useful off the bench. His breakdown work, tackling and experience in what will likely be a tight, forward focused match could be really valuable late on whilst missing Montoya, Cole, Martin, Chessum and Wiese from the first choice pack.

[Old Hob]

It does feel we are at a stage where defences are so strong that it's basically necessary to have two playmakers capable of playing 10 in order to break them down consistently

So, Ford and Farrell then?

[Rugbygramps]

Injury and post World Cup availability allowing I’m going

Shilcock
Bassett
Porter
Kelly
OHC
Atkinson
Whitely
Cronin
Dolly
Heyes
Henderson
Wells
Liebenberg
Reffell
Hatherall

Bench : Claire Whitcombe Hurd Chessum Rogerson Powell Kata Brown

Wouldn’t disagree with that side. Too bad SA won otherwise we would have had Wiese and Pollard

And the ridiculous non event that is the third place playoff means that none of our players will be back until after the final in 2 weeks. Even then I suspect Youngs may be the only one able to head straight back into the squad. I suspect it will be nearly December before we see some of our players.

If it’s the 3rd place playoff usually the squad players that haven’t had much game time will be given a run.
As things stand the only English tigers player that has played excessively is Chessum, even Steward has missed the last 2 games, so would expect/hope some back for Quins and the rest for Saints.
Expect South Africa to continue with their quarter final selection policy so hopefully Wiese and Pollard will return fairly fresh.
Montoya went off injured in the last few minutes v Wales but would expect him to play in the semi