Time for change

[TigerFeetSteve]

For me unless the RFU starts pumping a lot more money into the teams then for me the teams should structure themselves how they want.

Why Henderson, well 1, he was EQP (till his cap, so his entire Tigers career), 2, he's a talented player who improves Leicester Tigers, which is the team he was hired to improve.

For me someone like Snyman is fine for a club adds depth and training partners to allow the young English guys to develop. However it's clear with further development of youngsters we have released him.

Look at it this way. Ireland do the IRU having a lot more influence and they only have 4 teams, we have 10. That is enough teams to have enough talent developed.

As it is people are saying about England they haven't developed depth at TH... well there are enough English qualified TH's.

Maybe if the game was properly funded and supported by the RFU and clubs had the funding to bring a few more top props in from overseas (rather than journemen) then playing a higher standard would develop them more

[aslongaswebeatsaints]

Borths is getting the heat but this should all be laid at the feet of the RFU (and let’s not forget the PRU!). The RFU should be fronting up and taking the heat from their Manager. It’s like watching the rerun of Smurfs impossible situation left holding the baby at Tigers, taking the heat for years of malaise and incompetence by the then ‘management’.

My opinion - the RFU bottled sacking EJ when they should have. They then panicked when the Twickenham crowd boo’d and the press demanded blood. At a time when it was so close to the WC that they should have stuck with EJ who, let’s face it, is a World Cup specialist.

In the process they (the RFU) shafting Tigers to try and solve a problem of their own making. The PRU were notable in their absence. It was therefore inevitable that Borths would take the heat, another sign of rot that will continue until, like Tigers, the RFU and PRU management and Governance structures are dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

That said, though I think an opportunity has been missed to write off this World Cup and use it to blood a team of the next generation (aka France in the last World Cup), I go into the World Cup cheering Borths on. Mainly because I can see what he is doing and can recognise the same green shoots we started seeing before results changed at Tigers. The mindset is there and I am sure Aled and Sir Kevs work will start to bed in, but do they have enough time? And like COVID provided him some time at Tigers, once Argentina are out of the way, the side of the draw provides a little breathing space.

So I’ve decided to be positive from now on and cheer the team as they try and turn it around DESPITE the incompetence hiding in the shadows that is the RFU.

It’s sport, it’s rugby. One result can change everything.

[Leicestertinytiger]

For me it doesn’t help that SB is very corporate and scripted with his answers. No honesty and doesn’t actually get any buy in from fans. So I can’t exactly say it’s unfair Borths is getting the heat when he’s clearly out of his depth playing rugby from Andy Robinson era.

It’s almost like the players don’t buy into SB either. Players just seem to be going through the motion. Like Murphy and Tigers, on paper there’s a good team but something isn’t right.

[wigworth]

For me it doesn’t help that SB is very corporate and scripted with his answers. No honesty and doesn’t actually get any buy in from fans. So I can’t exactly say it’s unfair Borths is getting the heat when he’s clearly out of his depth playing rugby from Andy Robinson era.

It’s almost like the players don’t buy into SB either. Players just seem to be going through the motion. Like Murphy and Tigers, on paper there’s a good team but something isn’t right.

Somewhat ironically it seems like England need a jolt like what Eddie Jones gave when he first became coach.

[tigerburnie]

We have seen a decline that is now turning into a free fall situation, it looks to me that the RFU are insisting on what happens, I'm not sure Borthwick actually picks the team, did he really only pick one number 8, I'd love to hear the methodology of that one.

[Scott1]

Borths is getting the heat but this should all be laid at the feet of the RFU (and let’s not forget the PRU!). The RFU should be fronting up and taking the heat from their Manager. It’s like watching the rerun of Smurfs impossible situation left holding the baby at Tigers, taking the heat for years of malaise and incompetence by the then ‘management’.

My opinion - the RFU bottled sacking EJ when they should have. They then panicked when the Twickenham crowd boo’d and the press demanded blood. At a time when it was so close to the WC that they should have stuck with EJ who, let’s face it, is a World Cup specialist.

In the process they (the RFU) shafting Tigers to try and solve a problem of their own making. The PRU were notable in their absence. It was therefore inevitable that Borths would take the heat, another sign of rot that will continue until, like Tigers, the RFU and PRU management and Governance structures are dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

That said, though I think an opportunity has been missed to write off this World Cup and use it to blood a team of the next generation (aka France in the last World Cup), I go into the World Cup cheering Borths on. Mainly because I can see what he is doing and can recognise the same green shoots we started seeing before results changed at Tigers. The mindset is there and I am sure Aled and Sir Kevs work will start to bed in, but do they have enough time? And like COVID provided him some time at Tigers, once Argentina are out of the way, the side of the draw provides a little breathing space.

So I’ve decided to be positive from now on and cheer the team as they try and turn it around DESPITE the incompetence hiding in the shadows that is the RFU.

It’s sport, it’s rugby. One result can change everything.

Love to know what these green shoots are. All I see an outdated ,archaic gameplan that's isn't good enough at this level anymore and a miserable set of players. It might take a Corry/Ashton 2007 situation to sort this mess

[ourla]

It isn't big change required IMO.

France operates similar model to us, they just do it a bit better right now.

And there are still plenty of good England players - new coaching squad just aren't getting a tune out of them at the moment.

[ABClub]

We have seen a decline that is now turning into a free fall situation, it looks to me that the RFU are insisting on what happens, I'm not sure Borthwick actually picks the team, did he really only pick one number 8, I'd love to hear the methodology of that one.

Number 8 is the best example of the problem with the Prem's divebomb. Players that shine in the Premiership such as Billy and Dombrandt have been dismal at international level. The gulf is too huge.

I honestly think a root and branch reset is the only thing that can change the issues in the English game. Similar to the changes in France in 2019.

The way France have grown their system and made it more open just embarrasses the disaster that is the RFU and PRL.

At the top you have the the Top 14 and ProD2 which is managed by all the 30 clubs in those leagues meeting and voting. Because a system has been created that encourages, let alone allows, movement between leagues many clubs have been in both. So there is solidarity in decisions rather than "us and them" between the two divisions. They understand the importance of the structure as a whole and vote like it. Rather than just thinking, "what's most likely to keep our club in Top 14 in the next few years".

Then comes Nationale 1 (some pro, some semi-pro) and 2 (largely semi pro), Federales 1 and 2 (the top level of amateur rugby) which are managed by the FFR. Then Federale 3 and the regional divisions which are managed by those various regional leagues. So there is significant input from all involved. FFR, pro clubs, amateur leagues. Because there is genuine movement between all three you have a system that gives about what is up and down the pyramid.

Whereas in England we have the Premiership run by PRL for itself and owned by the P-share clubs who pulled up the drawbridge through self interest. Then the RFU trying to run an England team. Both of which are going fairly dismally. Then below that we have the Championship that has been underfunded, cut adrift and left to rot. Followed by an often poorly run amateur league structure. There is so much animosity throughout it. Club vs country (i.e. PRL vs RFU), Prem vs Championship, pro vs amateur.

I honestly think the best bet would be to have 3 unions. One that runs the pro game - the top 2 leagues, a Premiership A-league with restrictions on players over 23-years-old and the England men's team. One running the semi-pro - the national leagues below the Championship. One running the amateur game. The only way it can possibly work is with movement between those levels though.

P-shares were the starting pistol for the increasingly dismal level of competition we now see in the Premiership. It closed the shop and encouraged a setup that discourages competitive games week in, week out in our flagship league. Failing to capitalise when the Prem was stronger by properly investing in the Championship and an A-league to keep the academy talent moving was the final nail.

One good thing we do have is the academy structure. It was invested in heavily and is largely very good. There is U18 talent coming through the academies. Which means there is the raw materials to work with (i.e. talented rugby players) to have a better system. Without a structure that develops it we will continue to see it squandered though.

[Darc Tiger]

Not much to disagree with there for me.

[sk 88]

Is the problem with England largely related to the Premiership's reliance/preference for foreign players?

I would make a case for any central/RFU funding dependent on the playing of England qualified player.

Suggest that for75% of matches the the following should apply to the match day 23:

3 of the 6 front row players must be England qualified.
For scrum half, fly half and No8 either your starting or bench player must be England qualified.
Exceptions should be considered for injuries in season.

Probably the same should apply to the Championship but to all positions.

Radical but necessary. The league relies on England and vice versa.

No, need to go in the other direction & have more foreign players raising the standard of the league & testing the English players more regularly at a higher level. England have no problem with depth of options. The problem is the poor quality of the 23 players on the pitch. Lowering the standards & seeing players 200+ on the depth chart get more game time won't unearth any hidden diamonds, it will just see the players getting away with bad habits because there is less competition for places & lower quality matches.

[sk 88]

Would the likes of Henderson, Chessum and Martin potentially have been better now if they had been given more Premiership experience rather than being kept out by Snyman?

But for the Kolpak agreement, how many of these players would qualify for a work permit?

Indeed why Henderson? Why is the English Premiership developing players for Scotland?

It's one thing having world class foreign players like Montoja and Wiese but that doesn't apply to Snyman and a host of others we have employed who are well below international standard.

English Premiership clubs should develop players who want to play for England.

No. They'd be worse because they wouldn't have had to improve as much to get into the team.

Fundamentally disagree on the purpose of the league. The purpose of the league is to provide fun and meaning to us club fans. Developing England players is very much a secondary goal, if a goal at all.

[sk 88]

Borthwick could have insisted of the ability to have an unlimited refresh when he took over he was in a position to do that & chose not to.
He could have picked whoever he wanted for the Summer & again went for experience.
He chose his own inexperienced coaching team.

There are issues with player production, player pathway & the structure of the game, but a lot of the England teams problems are self inflicted.

Totally agree.

[tigerburnie]

We have seen a decline that is now turning into a free fall situation, it looks to me that the RFU are insisting on what happens, I'm not sure Borthwick actually picks the team, did he really only pick one number 8, I'd love to hear the methodology of that one.

Number 8 is the best example of the problem with the Prem's divebomb. Players that shine in the Premiership such as Billy and Dombrandt have been dismal at international level. The gulf is too huge.

I honestly think a root and branch reset is the only thing that can change the issues in the English game. Similar to the changes in France in 2019.

The way France have grown their system and made it more open just embarrasses the disaster that is the RFU and PRL.

At the top you have the the Top 14 and ProD2 which is managed by all the 30 clubs in those leagues meeting and voting. Because a system has been created that encourages, let alone allows, movement between leagues many clubs have been in both. So there is solidarity in decisions rather than "us and them" between the two divisions. They understand the importance of the structure as a whole and vote like it. Rather than just thinking, "what's most likely to keep our club in Top 14 in the next few years".

Then comes Nationale 1 (some pro, some semi-pro) and 2 (largely semi pro), Federales 1 and 2 (the top level of amateur rugby) which are managed by the FFR. Then Federale 3 and the regional divisions which are managed by those various regional leagues. So there is significant input from all involved. FFR, pro clubs, amateur leagues. Because there is genuine movement between all three you have a system that gives about what is up and down the pyramid.

Whereas in England we have the Premiership run by PRL for itself and owned by the P-share clubs who pulled up the drawbridge through self interest. Then the RFU trying to run an England team. Both of which are going fairly dismally. Then below that we have the Championship that has been underfunded, cut adrift and left to rot. Followed by an often poorly run amateur league structure. There is so much animosity throughout it. Club vs country (i.e. PRL vs RFU), Prem vs Championship, pro vs amateur.

I honestly think the best bet would be to have 3 unions. One that runs the pro game - the top 2 leagues, a Premiership A-league with restrictions on players over 23-years-old and the England men's team. One running the semi-pro - the national leagues below the Championship. One running the amateur game. The only way it can possibly work is with movement between those levels though.

P-shares were the starting pistol for the increasingly dismal level of competition we now see in the Premiership. It closed the shop and encouraged a setup that discourages competitive games week in, week out in our flagship league. Failing to capitalise when the Prem was stronger by properly investing in the Championship and an A-league to keep the academy talent moving was the final nail.

One good thing we do have is the academy structure. It was invested in heavily and is largely very good. There is U18 talent coming through the academies. Which means there is the raw materials to work with (i.e. talented rugby players) to have a better system. Without a structure that develops it we will continue to see it squandered though.

Actually the proposed two league premiership could answer a lot of questions, but both leagues have to be financed, to keep top players in England instead of going to France/Japan for higher wages, we need professional approach led by businessmen who know what they are doing..........................................so that will rule the RFU out then................

[Hot_Charlie]

Why Henderson, well 1, he was EQP (till his cap, so his entire Tigers career), 2, he's a talented player who improves Leicester Tigers, which is the team he was hired to improve.

And if he's really unlucky, he'll be EQP again in just over 35 month's time.

[Darc Tiger]

Why Henderson, well 1, he was EQP (till his cap, so his entire Tigers career), 2, he's a talented player who improves Leicester Tigers, which is the team he was hired to improve.

And if he's really unlucky, he'll be EQP again in just over 35 month's time.

Depends if he has English blood, otherwise he can only play for Hong Kong!