Rugby World Cup warm up games

[Scott1]

Whether the GP standard has dropped or not,whether there is too many foreign players or not and there is a quota needed it still doesn't excuse the dross we have been served up. Am I to believe the standard is this bad? Not for me. There's 10 GP teams,so we are saying that the standard of coaching is awful across the board there too and can't produce international level English players? I don't believe that either.

[ABClub]

The foreign player discussion was covered well on the time for change thread. I'm strongly of the view that we need more not less. Given it was discussed well there I'm not going to repeat it here but there's good views from several posters in there.

Ringfencing removing the threat of performing poorly has led to far too many dud games. There are still the good games of course. The final was excellent. Tigers and Sale have had some brutal battles etc. There are way too many high scoring and entertaining but low quality games in amongst it though. Low pressure affairs where one or both sides clearly aren't as concerned about the result because there's no threat of relegation. Squad depth has massively declined as a result. The strength of the best games is arguably of a similar level but the worst games are a way lower standard now and there are far more of them.

To prepare players for interantional rugby you need quality games week in, week out that force talent to improve. Not the odd good game interspersed with dross. England winning 3 Six Nations titles in 5 years, a record equalling run of wins, RWC final, etc coincided with Prem clubs winnings 4 out of 5 Champions Cups in the same years. Strong league, strong international team. The league is now very poor in comparison and so are England.

We've seen a lot of experienced England players look done at international level, then come back to the weak Premiership and shine. We've also seen players such as Dombrandt look good consistently in the Prem then be miles from the required standard in international rugby. The chasm between the two is too wide currently.

It doesn't absolve all coaching blame. I wouldn't have Youngs or Care in the squad. I don't understand a structure that looks built for two playmakers then only picking one in the starting XV. I also think Borthwick has been naive in leaning so heavily on coaches he worked with at Tigers. Outside voices are needed. I'd have much preferred targeting Shaw or Sorrell at Sarries for attack coach over WW even if Vesty and Evans couldn't be tempted. Or going after someone such as Joe El-Abd to work with the forwards alongside Borthwick like Easterby and O'Connell do with Ireland. Plenty of things I'd criticise.

I think England's biggest issue by a mile is the poor quality of our domestic competition now and how that isn't pushing talent to develop as far as it should before they reach international rugby. Which results in players learning on the job in an England shirt.

[Tiglon]

The foreign player discussion was covered well on the time for change thread. I'm strongly of the view that we need more not less. Given it was discussed well there I'm not going to repeat it here but there's good views from several posters in there.

Ringfencing removing the threat of performing poorly has led to far too many dud games. There are still the good games of course. The final was excellent. Tigers and Sale have had some brutal battles etc. There are way too many high scoring and entertaining but low quality games in amongst it though. Low pressure affairs where one or both sides clearly aren't as concerned about the result because there's no threat of relegation. Squad depth has massively declined as a result. The strength of the best games is arguably of a similar level but the worst games are a way lower standard now and there are far more of them.

To prepare players for interantional rugby you need quality games week in, week out that force talent to improve. Not the odd good game interspersed with dross. England winning 3 Six Nations titles in 5 years, a record equalling run of wins, RWC final, etc coincided with Prem clubs winnings 4 out of 5 Champions Cups in the same years. Strong league, strong international team. The league is now very poor in comparison and so are England.

We've seen a lot of experienced England players look done at international level, then come back to the weak Premiership and shine. We've also seen players such as Dombrandt look good consistently in the Prem then be miles from the required standard in international rugby. The chasm between the two is too wide currently.

It doesn't absolve all coaching blame. I wouldn't have Youngs or Care in the squad. I don't understand a structure that looks built for two playmakers then only picking one in the starting XV. I also think Borthwick has been naive in leaning so heavily on coaches he worked with at Tigers. Outside voices are needed. I'd have much preferred targeting Shaw or Sorrell at Sarries for attack coach over WW even if Vesty and Evans couldn't be tempted. Or going after someone such as Joe El-Abd to work with the forwards alongside Borthwick like Easterby and O'Connell do with Ireland. Plenty of things I'd criticise.

I think England's biggest issue by a mile is the poor quality of our domestic competition now and how that isn't pushing talent to develop as far as it should before they reach international rugby. Which results in players learning on the job in an England shirt.

Very good post.

How many times in the last 4 years have we seen fans and media clamouring for another player who's tearing it up in the Premiership to be picked for England, and then they are massively underwhelming?

Dombrandt, Smith, Care, Jack Willis, Arundell, Simmonds etc.

If clubs full or England internationals can't compete with the French or the Irish, why do we expect our national team to? Some of that is organisation and systems, but frankly other nations have better players than England do right now.

How many England players would even get in the French or South African second XV's at the moment?

[johnthegriff]

I think we do have the players to compete at the very top level, we proved that in Japan just 4 years ago. Whether we have selected the best ones for the job this time is another matter. For me we made a mistake in appointing Eddie Jones, he is singularly focused on winning a World Cup, his attitude in disregarding other competitions like the 6Nations just leads to his players getting out of the winning mentality and defeats his object. Borthwick has inherited Jones mess and has little time to correct it, we are where we are and if it is true that more can be learned from defeat than victory all involved have had wonderful study opportunities prior to the examination in France..
I think our system produces some very good players, 33 players are going to the World Cup and most fans can name another 33 who should have gone, there are very few positions where we don't have options, if the coaches can blend the ones chosen into a team we can still do well.

[Tiglon]

We did have the players 4 years ago, but times have changed.

We arguably had the best back row in the world, but none of those 3 players would be in the top 5 in their respective positions now.

Ben Youngs and Dan Cole were world class players in 2019. They aren't any more, so why are they still playing? Because no one is ready to take their places.

Which English players would anyone claim to be one of the top 5 in the world in their position? I can't think of a single one... maybe Genge, but not even him on current form.

[Scott1]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

[Hot_Charlie]

Nah - very very unlikely.

Agree. He doesn't even complete his coaching set-up til after the RWC. Sadly, whatever the results, it's Bill Sweeney who will have to carry any can that comes with RWC humiliation. He chose to get rid of Jones and the dire mess that has resulted.

He won’t care ,fans are easily appeased and it’s only the “hardcore” rugby fan that sees the real problem and it’s the “casual” fan that fills HQ year in year out. Bill sacks Borths after a RWC group stage exit and employs what the casual fan thinks is the right appointment and all is forgotten and HQ is full again for the 6N. Sad but 100% true I’m afraid

Indeed. Ultimately until HQ doesn't sell out for the 6N and Tier 1 AIs, Bill won't care at all and his job won't be under threat - and even then the big corporate sponsors will still be throwing money at HQ and England sponsorship. The fact the Premiership, Championship, player pathway etc is slowly dying does not matter one jot.

[Tiglon]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

I don't have a problem with it. Anyone else can do it if they like, and it doesn't negatively impact the game in any way.

[Scott1]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

I don't have a problem with it. Anyone else can do it if they like, and it doesn't negatively impact the game in any way.

Same here,i commented at the time at their ridiculous pack strength in depth

[Old Hob]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

I don't have a problem with it. Anyone else can do it if they like, and it doesn't negatively impact the game in any way.

Same here,i commented at the time at their ridiculous pack strength in depth

I would have thought it was up to them and if they have two backs injured they must deal with it. It is possibly only temporary in the sense that they may not always be in a position to have 15 Test quality forwards available

[TigerFeetSteve]

World rankings prior to the World Cup (so where they may finish (if pools go per rankings)

1 - Ireland Winner Group B
2 - South Africa Runner Up Group B
3 - France Winner Group A
4 - New Zealand Runner up Group A
5 - Scotland Out in groups
6 - Argentina Winner Group D
7 - Fiji Winner Group C
8 - England Runner up Group D
9 - Australia Runner up Group C
10 - Wales Out in groups

Leaving these as the QF's per rankings

France v South Africa
Ireland v New Zealand
Fiji v England
Argentina v Australia

Also random stat I believe the WC has only ever been won by the team ranked no.1 or no.4 at the start of the tournament

[No6_Flanker]

World rankings prior to the World Cup (so where they may finish (if pools go per rankings)

1 - Ireland Winner Group B
2 - South Africa Runner Up Group B
3 - France Winner Group A
4 - New Zealand Runner up Group A
5 - Scotland Out in groups
6 - Argentina Winner Group D
7 - Fiji Winner Group C
8 - England Runner up Group D
9 - Australia Runner up Group C
10 - Wales Out in groups

Leaving these as the QF's per rankings

France v South Africa
Ireland v New Zealand
Fiji v England
Argentina v Australia

Also random stat I believe the WC has only ever been won by the team ranked no.1 or no.4 at the start of the tournament

In this scenario, it might be preferable for England to finish second in the group and thus avoid Australia in the QFs. Although that would be a cracking matchup, Borthwick vs Eddie.

[mol2]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

Why?
So long as they have the requisite front row subs so that the scrum can continue, then it’s up to them.

If your fly half and scrum half get injured then you are in trouble. Anyone recall Bergamasco playing scrum half?
Not having backs to come on means the backs get tired or you bring on slower less agile players. This is something the England starting line up has adopted with Farrell, Tuillagi, Young’s et al.

[mol2]

Am I alone in thinking that Borthwick has made his own job so much harder by taking so many of Tigers coaching team with him?

Sure he inherited aged, demoralised side with minimal time before the World Cup.

But, aside from Aled Walters, how many of his coaching team had a meaningful track record and experience?
Sinfield had 1 whole season and his defensive structure seemed to have been sussed by the first half of last season. Wigglesworth looked lost, yet turned us around in the second half of the season but he only joined England at the end of the season.
Scrum coach- not sure that has been Tigers strongest suit over the past season or two. Some of that is down to the loss of Genge.

[wigworth]

Am I alone in thinking that Borthwick has made his own job so much harder by taking so many of Tigers coaching team with him?

Sure he inherited aged, demoralised side with minimal time before the World Cup.

But, aside from Aled Walters, how many of his coaching team had a meaningful track record and experience?
Sinfield had 1 whole season and his defensive structure seemed to have been sussed by the first half of last season. Wigglesworth looked lost, yet turned us around in the second half of the season but he only joined England at the end of the season.
Scrum coach- not sure that has been Tigers strongest suit over the past season or two. Some of that is down to the loss of Genge.

I thought he wanted the Sarries scrum coach but that fell through.

I do agree though, I am not totally sold on them having the required experience.