Rugby World Cup warm up games

[GB72]

Am I alone in thinking that Borthwick has made his own job so much harder by taking so many of Tigers coaching team with him?

Sure he inherited aged, demoralised side with minimal time before the World Cup.

But, aside from Aled Walters, how many of his coaching team had a meaningful track record and experience?
Sinfield had 1 whole season and his defensive structure seemed to have been sussed by the first half of last season. Wigglesworth looked lost, yet turned us around in the second half of the season but he only joined England at the end of the season.
Scrum coach- not sure that has been Tigers strongest suit over the past season or two. Some of that is down to the loss of Genge.

One issue could certainly be a lack of experience in the coaching set up from top to bottom. We had one of the best seasons ever at Tigers when we won the league but the start of the following season was looking a bit more shakey. There is no telling whether our coaching set up was going to develop into something special or were a one season wonder. England gambled on the former whereas it may prove to be the later. Only time will tell but SB's prickly relationship with the media coupled with the sometimes unpopular feelings towards Tigers in the media mean that the knives are very much out. That is made more difficult when you build a coaching team to work with and take with you as it is far more difficult to replace them to bring in new ideas.

[Scott1]

What does everyone think about the SA 7/1 split controversy? Should it be outlawed? Should everyone have to field a 5/3 split as is being punted by some?

Why?
So long as they have the requisite front row subs so that the scrum can continue, then it’s up to them.

If your fly half and scrum half get injured then you are in trouble. Anyone recall Bergamasco playing scrum half?
Not having backs to come on means the backs get tired or you bring on slower less agile players. This is something the England starting line up has adopted with Farrell, Tuillagi, Young’s et al.

Some ex pros were saying how dangerous it could be with fresh monster forwards coming on. They said that the bench should be for specialist forwards only as in front row and hooker etc and teams are taking advantage of it. Some on here have said the same in the past,how it adds to the possibility of more concussions and potential injuries

[Tiglon]

100% agree, the choice of assistant coaches is difficult to understand. I can only think that SB doesn't want anyone experienced around him who might challenge him. Not healthy from a leadership perspective.

[GB72]

100% agree, the choice of assistant coaches is difficult to understand. I can only think that SB doesn't want anyone experienced around him who might challenge him. Not healthy from a leadership perspective.

Could look at it 2 ways, as you state or that he has built a team that are all on the same page and commited to the same goals and ethos. Sadly that only works when you are facing in the right direction. The lack of opposing voices must make it hard to create new plans and turn the ship around when needed.

Sadly I suspect that Borthwich will be a victim of both himself and the state of English rugby and will be gone by the end of the 6 Nations if nothing dramatic happens.

[fortysix]

If its a lousy showing at the World Cup, he wont make it to the Six Nations. The Heirarchy will want to deflect from their absolute uselessness.

[ay2oh]

There is no way that they will sack him that quick otherwise they will look even more stupid than they already do.

[Nofrontteeth]

There is no way that they will sack him that quick otherwise they will look even more stupid than they already do.

But do they recognise/realise they're already looking stupid?

[GB72]

Could be an interesting situation as I could see the RFU trying to save some face if the world cup is awful by keeping Borthwick on if he changes his back room team and maybe even accepts a director of rugby. Would be interesting to see if he stays loyal to those he has brought along with him.

[mol2]

DOR might be a hard swallow but probably needed to help get the right coaching team.

[ABClub]

Am I alone in thinking that Borthwick has made his own job so much harder by taking so many of Tigers coaching team with him?

Yep. It's a crutch rather than a strength that Borthwick has gone for so many coaches he worked with previously IMO.

We know that he wanted Ian Peel (Sarries forwards coach and very highly rated) as scrum coach but he chose to stay put. Hence Harrison joining. That was a big miss IMO. Peel is more experienced and vitally he's experienced as a forwards coach as well as scrum coach. So he could have shared forwards coaching duties with Borthwick more. Similar to when Hatley was with England or Wig was with the Lions as 'scrum coach' alongside Borth. Due to their experience that remit would have extended to another voice in the forwards coaching. Which Harrison's experience doesn't really suggest he should be doing at this level.

Once Peel decided to stay at Sarries I don't mind a scrum coach who's remit doesn't go beyond that. It's not unusual at all. John Fogarty with Ireland and Greg Feek with New Zealand are two very successful examples. I do feel another voice in the general forwards coaching would have helped though. Someone such as Joe El-Abd who is a very highly rated coach in France with decent experience outside the Prem for instance. Similar to Easterby and POC both working with Ireland's forwards in open play and the lineout whilst Fogarty leads the scrum work as a specialist. El-Abd could also offer experience coaching forwards alongside Sinfield.

Apparently they wanted Evans for the RWC but Quins didn't want to release him just for that and the Six Nations. Felix Jones (current Boks staff, formerly Munster) is signed up for after the RWC. He's highly rated, has coached attack and defence to my knowledge. So maybe the plan was for Jones to be attack coach but they couldn't secure a release, so tried for NEv and could get a release? But then early rumours were that WW would join. So was WW planned to be attack coach or more of skills role working with SHs, kicking, etc? It seems a bit scrambled.

Vesty would have been my first choice for attack coach. I think that Joe Shaw (Sarries head coach) or Kevin Sorrell (Sarries backs coach) would have been very good options too. Both are highly rated, have been mentored by McCall and Sarries attack has expanded well over the years.

Even Scott Wisemantel is currently available to my knowledge, has worked with England before and has a good rep.

Hell, John Mitchell is back with the RFU as Red Rose head coach. Could he have been involved over the camps and warmups as an experienced voice?

Failing to get release for Peel and Evans makes me wonder whether the RFU blew their load getting SB and KS early, didn't have much left for the rest of the team.

As said many times, including on this thread, I largely feel that England's issues are the pro games fading structures, the Prem dropping startling in standard and academy talent stalling. The coaching team around him is something I'd criticise Borthwick though.

[mol2]

I suspect Sarries coaching budget is higher than England's so poaching any of their's was going to be tricky if into the same role rather than promotion to a higher role.

[Scott1]

What's that ABC? Oh sorry you just dropped a few names

[ABClub]

I suspect Sarries coaching budget is higher than England's so poaching any of their's was going to be tricky if into the same role rather than promotion to a higher role.

The Wray's obviously have money but the RFU must've spent getting on for £2m between paying out SB and KS, getting rid of Eddie and his team. If they can drop that then the England coaching team must have a bigger budget than Sarries.

Borthwick is well known to be a workaholic and expects his team to keep similar hours. Stankovich apparently moved on because he didn't want the job dominating his life like that. Maybe Sarries offering better security and balance was part of Peel's decision.

Felix Jones' official title is "European-based coaching consultant" for instance. Which presumably gives him the flexibility he needs to work with the Boks whilst not spending too much time outside of Europe. It was possible to SB to get a fantastic Prem coaching team whilst wanting them to work those hours.

Even if not targeting the latest impressive coaches to have come out of McCall's tutoring there are other options beyond staff SB has worked with before was more my point though. Joe El-Abd may not want to leave a head coach role for an assistant one. He may not even want to leave France for personal reasons. He was just an example of someone with different experience that could add to this inexperienced team.

[GB72]

Is it wrong to feel a degree of Schadenfreude if Tigers move forward from where they were last season whilst England crash with all of our coaches that the poached.

[ABClub]

I know I'm in the minority on here but I don't feel any anger over it. Tigers got a big pay out for SB and KS at a time when Prem clubs are desperate for money. The others contracts were up. It's tough losing 5 coaches at once but I don't really see any malfeasance there.

When rumours around Watson getting a central contract that might benefit Tigers down the line leaked out there was some posts along the lines of, "the RFU owes us", when discussing why one club shouldn't benefit from such a deal. Which I didn't understand as Tigers were paid what they were owed in an early buy out of two contracts. If the buyout weren't big enough then that would've been on Tigers, namely Andrea et al. Brutal but it is pro sport at the end of the day.

I'm an England fan as well as a Tigers fan and want to see both do well.

I've hold a huge amount of anger towards the RFU's incompetence in many other areas but that isn't one for me.