Champions Cup Final

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Pellsey
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Pellsey »

ourla wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 12:45 am Not sure I like this slagging off of all things Leinster.

From what I've read they have largely done things the right way.

I don't believe refs are biased so if Leinster are playing a certain way and not getting penalised others should simply do the same.

Reminds me of the era when we won European Cups and known as cheats.
Although I do agree (yes, I have been guilty of this too!), Ourla, I think people are irritated by the way they and the media present themselves. They come across as very arrogant, and when arrogant people lose, it is amusing - Schadenfreude.

Leinster do play extremely good rugby, as you would expect from a fully international team currently rated the best in the world... which is another reason why people are irritated - that they are an international team, not really a "club" team. It adds salt to the wound when they have the advantage of having home games in the last three stages of the competition.

As for refereeing... it is not fair on any team if a referee misses things or referees in with an advantage to the way they play. An offside is an offside and diving into the ruck is still diving into a ruck. I hate the idea of "playing to the ref." This just means to me that the referee is not refereeing properly or at the very least, consistantly.

When I lived in Dublin, I had some great craic with the locals, and to make things better, Tigers were always beating them at the time. That time will come again.
Tiglon
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Tiglon »

In fairness, La Rochelle did try doing the same things, and got consistently pinged for it...

In the first half they were penalised if they so much as looked at a breakdown, while Leinster were flying in off their feet or from the side and getting away from it.

For me though, the big issue is how Leinster are allowed to talk to referees in a disrespectful way that no other team could get away with. What kind of referee allows players to put their arm round him during a match, or raise their voices at him inches from his face?
ourla
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by ourla »

Tiglon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 am In fairness, La Rochelle did try doing the same things, and got consistently pinged for it...

In the first half they were penalised if they so much as looked at a breakdown, while Leinster were flying in off their feet or from the side and getting away from it.
That sounds like you are calling the referee biased.

I think there is a tendency for referee's to have a keener eye on the team that is under the cosh. And there is some logic to that. But equally for games like these, they have a top referee, who isn't going to be so naïve as think the dominant team won't try to exploit the situation also.
Tiglon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 amFor me though, the big issue is how Leinster are allowed to talk to referees in a disrespectful way that no other team could get away with. What kind of referee allows players to put their arm round him during a match, or raise their voices at him inches from his face?
Can't say as I noticed that myself. It's down to Peyper to manage it - who as I said, is a very experienced referee.
Not a jock
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Not a jock »

ourla wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 12:45 am Not sure I like this slagging off of all things Leinster.

From what I've read they have largely done things the right way.

I don't believe refs are biased so if Leinster are playing a certain way and not getting penalised others should simply do the same.

Reminds me of the era when we won European Cups and known as cheats.
I agree. All this gloating is unedifying. Theres's stench of sour grapes plus the usual "the ref was biased and/or blind because the team we were supporting on the day didn't win." Why can't folks just enjoy watching a great game?

The IRU's chequebook is used to fund the bulk of the Ireland first XV and bench in Leinster's squad. Other clubs and regions also have big cheques to fund the acquisition of a world-class squad. Other posts on here contain moans about the bigger budgets of French clubs, subsidised by French municipalities and/or wealthy owners. When such squads train together all season, surely it matters not one jot if they're a multi-national band of brothers (eg La Rochelle) or largely from one nation (eg Leinster). What percentage of Tigers' first XV have Leics accents?! They are probably more from Norfolk, Lincs, S Africa, Oz, Wales, Ireland and Argentina than Leics. Dan Cole is in a small minority! The academy spreads its net far and wide too.

The result could've gone the other way eg if one of the two Leinster conversions that hit the post had been successful, kicks that went out on the full or taken back into the 22 were avoided, if Ryan and Furlong had lasted longer etc etc. Very fine margins,
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by RichardB »

Fine margins indeed & COMPOSURE. La Rochelle had it & Leinster didn't.

Examples of which were Lowe slicing two kicks to touch in the second half & inviting pressure back onto his team. La Rochelle then have two crucial line outs in the last few minutes both of which they call to the tail & both of which they absolutely nail.

Despite the poor refereeing - what a game of rugby !
Rugbygramps
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Rugbygramps »

Not a jock can I thank you for restoring some of my faith in this forum.
I had made up my mind that I wasn’t going to post again, but was still following the threads with interest and amusement.
IMHO, through no one’s real fault it has become a place for negativity and criticism, with the enjoyment of rugby seemingly forgotten by some.
90% of posts seem to be either criticising officials, or the actions of other teams usually Saracens or Leinster, and how they’re always offside or cheating at rucks etc.
After Leinster went 12 nil up someone posted but the hookers feet were in play for the first try and wasn’t it a forward pass for the 2nd !!

Saturdays final was a great game, played between 2 talented and well coached sides, and for me the better side won, as La Rochelle played more rugby. Yes they were helped by Aleatoa brain fart at the end, as without it Leinster would have had an attacking 5 meter scrum, but no neutral can deny that La Rochelle didn’t deserve their win.

Part of me hankers back to the days of where we just had commentators with no summarisers, as I’m sure Healey and the like often just deliberately cause controversy.

As a slight aside I watched Wayne Barnes interview with Jim Hamilton, where he was explaining why he is so keen for technology to be used, and in particular the smart ball which is being trialed during the u20 championship in the summer.
One of the main reasons is that people don’t argue with technology, he cited DRS in cricket, and Hawkeye in the tennis, and fans accepting what the technology says as fact, whereas humans make mistakes, and he felt this would take pressure off the officials
Pellsey
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Pellsey »

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Not a jock can I thank you for restoring some of my faith in this forum.
I had made up my mind that I wasn’t going to post again, but was still following the threads with interest and amusement.
IMHO, through no one’s real fault it has become a place for negativity and criticism, with the enjoyment of rugby seemingly forgotten by some.
90% of posts seem to be either criticising officials, or the actions of other teams usually Saracens or Leinster, and how they’re always offside or cheating at rucks etc.
After Leinster went 12 nil up someone posted but the hookers feet were in play for the first try and wasn’t it a forward pass for the 2nd !!
Apologies, rugbygramps, for my part in that. You are, of course, completely right. It is far better to focus on the quality of rugby than ... anything else really. I think sometimes in the passion of the game, things don't go "right", people, myself included, get frustrated. I will try harder! It is good to have you back, like said in another thread.

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Saturdays final was a great game, played between 2 talented and well coached sides, and for me the better side won, as La Rochelle played more rugby. Yes they were helped by Aleatoa brain fart at the end, as without it Leinster would have had an attacking 5 meter scrum, but no neutral can deny that La Rochelle didn’t deserve their win.

Part of me hankers back to the days of where we just had commentators with no summarisers, as I’m sure Healey and the like often just deliberately cause controversy.
I think this is part of the the issue... without summerisers or halftime discussion, people don't get as irate. With the luxury of multiple angles on TV, spectators can see far more than sir... sometimes we forget that.
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm As a slight aside I watched Wayne Barnes interview with Jim Hamilton, where he was explaining why he is so keen for technology to be used, and in particular the smart ball which is being trialed during the u20 championship in the summer.
One of the main reasons is that people don’t argue with technology, he cited DRS in cricket, and Hawkeye in the tennis, and fans accepting what the technology says as fact, whereas humans make mistakes, and he felt this would take pressure off the officials.
This makes a lot of sense to me. The only negative side, is that things will take even longer to decide... but you can't have everything!
Tiglon
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Tiglon »

ourla wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 12:06 pm
Tiglon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 am In fairness, La Rochelle did try doing the same things, and got consistently pinged for it...

In the first half they were penalised if they so much as looked at a breakdown, while Leinster were flying in off their feet or from the side and getting away from it.
That sounds like you are calling the referee biased.

I think there is a tendency for referee's to have a keener eye on the team that is under the cosh. And there is some logic to that. But equally for games like these, they have a top referee, who isn't going to be so naïve as think the dominant team won't try to exploit the situation also.
Tiglon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 amFor me though, the big issue is how Leinster are allowed to talk to referees in a disrespectful way that no other team could get away with. What kind of referee allows players to put their arm round him during a match, or raise their voices at him inches from his face?
Can't say as I noticed that myself. It's down to Peyper to manage it - who as I said, is a very experienced referee.
We're all biased, it's human nature. Especially when surrounded by a very loud home crowd and a very vocal home team. The referee needs to be aware of this, block out the crowd as much as is possible, and not allow either team to be too vocal. In my opinion Peyper failed catastrophically on that last point.

Is the referee more closely watching one team because they are under the cosh, or are they under the cosh because the referee is more closely watching them? Perhaps one leads to the other and a cycle perpetuates. Causation isn't always clear cut.

You may not have noticed certain things, bit that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Experience doesn't always correlate with competence.

I respect your point of view though, you're not being unreasonable, and it's always very possible that I'm completely wrong...
Rugbygramps
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Rugbygramps »

Pellsey wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:24 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Not a jock can I thank you for restoring some of my faith in this forum.
I had made up my mind that I wasn’t going to post again, but was still following the threads with interest and amusement.
IMHO, through no one’s real fault it has become a place for negativity and criticism, with the enjoyment of rugby seemingly forgotten by some.
90% of posts seem to be either criticising officials, or the actions of other teams usually Saracens or Leinster, and how they’re always offside or cheating at rucks etc.
After Leinster went 12 nil up someone posted but the hookers feet were in play for the first try and wasn’t it a forward pass for the 2nd !!
Apologies, rugbygramps, for my part in that. You are, of course, completely right. It is far better to focus on the quality of rugby than ... anything else really. I think sometimes in the passion of the game, things don't go "right", people, myself included, get frustrated. I will try harder! It is good to have you back, like said in another thread.

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Saturdays final was a great game, played between 2 talented and well coached sides, and for me the better side won, as La Rochelle played more rugby. Yes they were helped by Aleatoa brain fart at the end, as without it Leinster would have had an attacking 5 meter scrum, but no neutral can deny that La Rochelle didn’t deserve their win.

Part of me hankers back to the days of where we just had commentators with no summarisers, as I’m sure Healey and the like often just deliberately cause controversy.
I think this is part of the the issue... without summerisers or halftime discussion, people don't get as irate. With the luxury of multiple angles on TV, spectators can see far more than sir... sometimes we forget that.
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm As a slight aside I watched Wayne Barnes interview with Jim Hamilton, where he was explaining why he is so keen for technology to be used, and in particular the smart ball which is being trialed during the u20 championship in the summer.
One of the main reasons is that people don’t argue with technology, he cited DRS in cricket, and Hawkeye in the tennis, and fans accepting what the technology says as fact, whereas humans make mistakes, and he felt this would take pressure off the officials.
This makes a lot of sense to me. The only negative side, is that things will take even longer to decide... but you can't have everything!
I forget the time frames that Wayne gave, he did say it was very much a work in progress. He did say that the technology, NASA based, is able to detect deviation down to 6mm by the ball, and that acceptable variants need to be looked at, for example if the throw in at a line out deviates by 1 degree, throwing the ball to the 2 or 4 jumpers would make no difference, but would have a bigger impact for a ball over the top. Hope this makes sense
Pellsey
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Pellsey »

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:48 pm
Pellsey wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:24 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Not a jock can I thank you for restoring some of my faith in this forum.
I had made up my mind that I wasn’t going to post again, but was still following the threads with interest and amusement.
IMHO, through no one’s real fault it has become a place for negativity and criticism, with the enjoyment of rugby seemingly forgotten by some.
90% of posts seem to be either criticising officials, or the actions of other teams usually Saracens or Leinster, and how they’re always offside or cheating at rucks etc.
After Leinster went 12 nil up someone posted but the hookers feet were in play for the first try and wasn’t it a forward pass for the 2nd !!
Apologies, rugbygramps, for my part in that. You are, of course, completely right. It is far better to focus on the quality of rugby than ... anything else really. I think sometimes in the passion of the game, things don't go "right", people, myself included, get frustrated. I will try harder! It is good to have you back, like said in another thread.

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm Saturdays final was a great game, played between 2 talented and well coached sides, and for me the better side won, as La Rochelle played more rugby. Yes they were helped by Aleatoa brain fart at the end, as without it Leinster would have had an attacking 5 meter scrum, but no neutral can deny that La Rochelle didn’t deserve their win.

Part of me hankers back to the days of where we just had commentators with no summarisers, as I’m sure Healey and the like often just deliberately cause controversy.
I think this is part of the the issue... without summerisers or halftime discussion, people don't get as irate. With the luxury of multiple angles on TV, spectators can see far more than sir... sometimes we forget that.
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:49 pm As a slight aside I watched Wayne Barnes interview with Jim Hamilton, where he was explaining why he is so keen for technology to be used, and in particular the smart ball which is being trialed during the u20 championship in the summer.
One of the main reasons is that people don’t argue with technology, he cited DRS in cricket, and Hawkeye in the tennis, and fans accepting what the technology says as fact, whereas humans make mistakes, and he felt this would take pressure off the officials.
This makes a lot of sense to me. The only negative side, is that things will take even longer to decide... but you can't have everything!
I forget the time frames that Wayne gave, he did say it was very much a work in progress. He did say that the technology, NASA based, is able to detect deviation down to 6mm by the ball, and that acceptable variants need to be looked at, for example if the throw in at a line out deviates by 1 degree, throwing the ball to the 2 or 4 jumpers would make no difference, but would have a bigger impact for a ball over the top. Hope this makes sense
Maybe they could do the same for putting the ball into the scrum too! haha

As it sounds though here, this then seems quite instant, and would not require any extra time. In this case, I would be all for it.
Rugbygramps
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Rugbygramps »

Pellsey scrum feeds were mentioned. Barnes also commented on the balls ability to record exactly where it crosses the touch line and cited JVP kick at the end of the Sale game where the ball went dead, with Tigers staff saying it didn’t and Sale saying it did. Also help with any goal kicks that may go over one of the posts.
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by loretta »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:38 am Pellsey scrum feeds were mentioned. Barnes also commented on the balls ability to record exactly where it crosses the touch line and cited JVP kick at the end of the Sale game where the ball went dead, with Tigers staff saying it didn’t and Sale saying it did. Also help with any goal kicks that may go over one of the posts.
All sounds positive to me.
In my defence, I was left unsupervised….
Rugbygramps
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by Rugbygramps »

I agree Loretta shame it won’t be ready for RWC. Next 6 nations possibly?
TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
wigworth
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Re: Champions Cup Final

Post by wigworth »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:06 am https://twitter.com/zuroph/status/16606 ... uFzEg&s=19

This made me chuckle I won't lie
Haha surely not
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