Exiles set for Exile?

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Tigerbeat
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Tigerbeat »

Rugby league had a salary cap which was set up at no more than 50% of revenue recieved....protected the Clubs existence and was policed with audits.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Tigersunited wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:56 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:00 am
ads wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:08 am You've got to speculate to accumulate or what ever....

Lots of companies borrow to expand and increase revenue. If you have a chance to bolster your squad and potentially do better in the league/europe and therefore increase revunue with more sponsors and bums on seats etc. then why not.

Yes its a finacial risk, and the clubs need to ask themselves and their backers about it, but for some it could be worth it. Others maybe not and you need to know your limits in any kind of business. If the opportunity isn't there, then the growth is stifled.
I think the big problem with that is you can be the most successful club in Europe and you still aren't going to make money out of rugby. Yes, you've got to speculate to accumulate but in the current climate, why on earth would you speculate on English domestic rugby?
I understand all this, but struggle to see the sense of a governing body increasing the CAP after 2/3 clubs have gone bust. Seems irresponsible, unless they have increased central revenue with TV and sponsorship deals.
The governing body - Premiership Rugby - is essentially run b the clubs. It may have a Chief Exec etc, but the power is elsewhere:

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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by TTRITH »

Hot_Charlie wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:18 pm
TTRITH wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:42 pm Add a stipulation that no player can play more than 1,280 minutes of regular league matches. That's the full length of 16 matches, so in effect, 2 rest days. For every additional 240 minutes of rugby (I.E Internationals or English Rugby Cup) that removes 80 minutes from the regular league matches. This ensures that all players, not just the internationals, are getting ample rest time, but also allowing the clubs to manage this, meaning that you are unlikely to get the situation like the AIs where teams would be unable to field any internationals in the league.
Where does the ERCC fit in this plan, considering our most used player this year played 26 matches across the Prem and Europe (well below the recommended threshold which is still around 30-35 depending on game time) and just over 2000 minutes.

I don't think the clubs will buy into a system where they can play barely half that.

... I may have forgotten to calculate the ERCC in these calculations.

I'd probably stick with the 2 games off, so instead of 1,280 minutes of rugby, with the regular pool games, that would take the maximum minutes to 1,600, or 20 matches. Once you hit knock out rugby, I'd keep them out the calculations. I don't think you could cry player welfare and then also stop a play potentially playing in a final because he's played too many matches.

Say you have a player playing all the AIs and all the Six Nation matches - that's 720 minutes which would limit a player to 17 regular matches or 13 out of 18 regular league games, as Europe would probably take precedent. If you've got a player in the Rugby Championship, they'd be no more limited, as they wouldn't play enough to take them over that threshold.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

TTRITH wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:56 am
Hot_Charlie wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:18 pm
TTRITH wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:42 pm Add a stipulation that no player can play more than 1,280 minutes of regular league matches. That's the full length of 16 matches, so in effect, 2 rest days. For every additional 240 minutes of rugby (I.E Internationals or English Rugby Cup) that removes 80 minutes from the regular league matches. This ensures that all players, not just the internationals, are getting ample rest time, but also allowing the clubs to manage this, meaning that you are unlikely to get the situation like the AIs where teams would be unable to field any internationals in the league.
Where does the ERCC fit in this plan, considering our most used player this year played 26 matches across the Prem and Europe (well below the recommended threshold which is still around 30-35 depending on game time) and just over 2000 minutes.

I don't think the clubs will buy into a system where they can play barely half that.

... I may have forgotten to calculate the ERCC in these calculations.

I'd probably stick with the 2 games off, so instead of 1,280 minutes of rugby, with the regular pool games, that would take the maximum minutes to 1,600, or 20 matches. Once you hit knock out rugby, I'd keep them out the calculations. I don't think you could cry player welfare and then also stop a play potentially playing in a final because he's played too many matches.

Say you have a player playing all the AIs and all the Six Nation matches - that's 720 minutes which would limit a player to 17 regular matches or 13 out of 18 regular league games, as Europe would probably take precedent. If you've got a player in the Rugby Championship, they'd be no more limited, as they wouldn't play enough to take them over that threshold.
That sounds a far too sensible plan to adopt. :smt003
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Tigersunited »

Hot_Charlie wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 am
Tigersunited wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:56 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:00 am

I think the big problem with that is you can be the most successful club in Europe and you still aren't going to make money out of rugby. Yes, you've got to speculate to accumulate but in the current climate, why on earth would you speculate on English domestic rugby?
I understand all this, but struggle to see the sense of a governing body increasing the CAP after 2/3 clubs have gone bust. Seems irresponsible, unless they have increased central revenue with TV and sponsorship deals.
The governing body - Premiership Rugby - is essentially run b the clubs. It may have a Chief Exec etc, but the power is elsewhere:

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers
Correct and is irresponsible in the current climate.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Tigersunited wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:28 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:32 am
Tigersunited wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:56 pm

I understand all this, but struggle to see the sense of a governing body increasing the CAP after 2/3 clubs have gone bust. Seems irresponsible, unless they have increased central revenue with TV and sponsorship deals.
The governing body - Premiership Rugby - is essentially run b the clubs. It may have a Chief Exec etc, but the power is elsewhere:

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... 2/officers
Correct and is irresponsible in the current climate.
But the age old problem and turkeys/Christmas etc means change is unlikely. It's run by the clubs for the clubs.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Darc Tiger »

Mood is grim: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 60eab65c97
“We need a miracle,” one source said.

“I think it’s game over,” added another.
The Times revealed that players have been lining up moves elsewhere for a number of weeks. It is understood that some of Irish’s England internationals have a “respectable queue of quality employers” ready to sign them; others have secured provisional moves to France.
One idea is that the surviving ten Premiership clubs could be given dispensation to sign Irish players and afforded extra salary cap space. A benevolent fund could also be set up for unemployed players.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Tiglon »

Darc Tiger wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:18 pm Mood is grim: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 60eab65c97
“We need a miracle,” one source said.

“I think it’s game over,” added another.
The Times revealed that players have been lining up moves elsewhere for a number of weeks. It is understood that some of Irish’s England internationals have a “respectable queue of quality employers” ready to sign them; others have secured provisional moves to France.
One idea is that the surviving ten Premiership clubs could be given dispensation to sign Irish players and afforded extra salary cap space. A benevolent fund could also be set up for unemployed players.
Such a shame, is the end coming for English club rugby as we know it?

3 clubs going bust in one season is more than a bump in the road.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by loretta »

Not the end. A big challenge, but not the end. I can imagine there are a few that are now more willing to consider a form of franchise and central support than there were a year or 2 ago.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by ay2oh »

loretta wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:53 pm Not the end. A big challenge, but not the end. I can imagine there are a few that are now more willing to consider a form of franchise and central support than there were a year or 2 ago.
Presumably if three clubs go bust all the RFU/TV monies will be shared equally between the remaining clubs + there won’t be any clashes with international games.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

The fact is that Crossan the current owner HAS the funds to support the club for the next season.

So the question is this...

Will he think he would recoup more of the debts owed to him from the club by selling it or by it going in to administration.

I doubt this takeover will happen in time so the question is, all about which scenario Crossan loses the least money. I think (but may be wrong) that of the £40 odd million debt LI have that over £30 million of that is owed to Crossan or companies he controls.

The club loses about £4 million a year.

Option 1) He refuses to back them for the upcoming season, administration occurs, rescue package comes in to buy essentially the name and training ground, in that scenario I think he loses significant levels of funds, but no more than he's committed.

Option 2) He provides assurances then sells the club off, with the assets of the club having P-Shares, players & staff contracts in addition to the badge and training ground, so probably sells it for more than the admistration process.

Option 3) He provides assurances but all sales fall through and in a years time club is in the same place, with him circa £4million worse off, with the club likely even less attractive to sell (not many of their players will be wanting to put pen to paper on deals till long term is sorted so they will start losing assets while debts go up...

So question really is Crossan has to weigh up which of option 2 or 3 is more likely if he gives assurances, the fact is though the club has been up for sale for a while and only really this one bidder, so Crossan may still have to agree to write more of the club's debt off to make the sale more attractive, but the more he's writing off to sell the club the more attractive Option 1 looks as the amount he gets back from a sale will get closer to what he gets back from administration.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by mol2 »

Have the artificial barriers to promotion contributed?

If sides couldn’t afford a competitive team, relegation allowed a chance of surviving at a less expensive level and perhaps getting promoted when they could put a team together of a high enough standard.

Arguably the likes of Wasps have been forced to pay for a champagne lifestyle when they only had beer money. Partly by choice but partly because relegation and regrouping has gone so they end up borrowing to keep goiing.

We need a better championship with easier promotion between the two.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by tigerburnie »

mol2 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:14 am Have the artificial barriers to promotion contributed?

If sides couldn’t afford a competitive team, relegation allowed a chance of surviving at a less expensive level and perhaps getting promoted when they could put a team together of a high enough standard.

Arguably the likes of Wasps have been forced to pay for a champagne lifestyle when they only had beer money. Partly by choice but partly because relegation and regrouping has gone so they end up borrowing to keep goiing.

We need a better championship with easier promotion between the two.
Very true
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

mol2 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:14 am Have the artificial barriers to promotion contributed?

If sides couldn’t afford a competitive team, relegation allowed a chance of surviving at a less expensive level and perhaps getting promoted when they could put a team together of a high enough standard.

Arguably the likes of Wasps have been forced to pay for a champagne lifestyle when they only had beer money. Partly by choice but partly because relegation and regrouping has gone so they end up borrowing to keep goiing.

We need a better championship with easier promotion between the two.
Not at all. All three of these clubs were struggling well before relegation was scrapped, and facing financial ruin if they were relegated. Clubs wanted an end to relegation to allow them stability to make viable financial plans. In Wasps' case it could be argued that removing the threat of relegation prolonged them as a business.

Only 3 years ago Tigers were looking at how to mitigate the financial ruin of a season in the Championship. 2 seasons before that the talk was how to mitigate the losses of a year or two in the Challenge Cup.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by LE18 »

I have just acquired a book, "Passion in Exile", by Peter Bills, just starting to read it. 100 years of London Irish RFC, 1898-1998, Forward by Spike Milligan, he was a very quick winger and played for their 'B' team.
I cant wait to find the time to read more, think its going to be very interesting, but my oh my what a time to be reading this with their terrible dilemma now.
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