Exiles set for Exile?
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
I posted quite a while back that Chiefs were in a bad place, that many of those with money that Rowe could draw on had been 'fair-weather friends' who wanted a high-tariff managerial signing etc. Several posters cast aspersions on this, one even implying I was ignorant of the realities. My info came from inside the club at that time (not any more). Assets have had to be realised and some of the silver flogged off including some local freehold; Rowe, not a well man, has had to prop the club up further, just as Tom & Scott have for us. I wouldn't be surprised if Chiefs will be playing in the David Lloyd Stadium in the future.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
To create a really competitive second tier why not require a top 6 finish to get into the Premiership( will need to be renamed) Cup then make it that the Premiership sides have to field say at least 5 under 23s!
If there were 16 teams then 4 leagues of round robin matches with top 2 qualifying for the quarter finals.
Obviously there would need to be 2 Championship teams in 2 of the leagues so maybe again some sort of seeding is needed.
Long term you’d need to try to make sure the same teams weren’t always in the same round robin leagues season after season.
I used to really enjoy the John Player Cup years where you ended up going to some great away games.
It was towards the end of the Pilkington Cup years that Tigers scraped past Exeter which proved that Exeter could compete with the so called Big Teams!
How to fit this in with the Championship Fixture list I don’t know!
In the meantime I wish all the wonderful Irish Club and great supporters all the best.
If there were 16 teams then 4 leagues of round robin matches with top 2 qualifying for the quarter finals.
Obviously there would need to be 2 Championship teams in 2 of the leagues so maybe again some sort of seeding is needed.
Long term you’d need to try to make sure the same teams weren’t always in the same round robin leagues season after season.
I used to really enjoy the John Player Cup years where you ended up going to some great away games.
It was towards the end of the Pilkington Cup years that Tigers scraped past Exeter which proved that Exeter could compete with the so called Big Teams!
How to fit this in with the Championship Fixture list I don’t know!
In the meantime I wish all the wonderful Irish Club and great supporters all the best.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
you still have the PRC it just means you shouldn't have league games with England players not available, put championship sides into the cup too to make sure it covers all international windowsHot_Charlie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:57 amBut when do the youngsters get the opportunity to get into the team? It was easier when the PRC/LV/AWC was a semi-serious competition, but now it's almost (well it is) a Championship level comp. Arguably it'll mean only the very best will break through perhaps.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
That misses my point. The PRC was the stepping stone to Premiership debuts, which would often come because players were away for internationals, and is not at elite Premiership level. So how do players get to step up? Take Sam Edwards: Prem debut with Youngs and JVP away with England. Emeka Ilione? Two of his three Prem appearances this year were during the 6N with Refell away.Jimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:01 pmyou still have the PRC it just means you shouldn't have league games with England players not available, put championship sides into the cup too to make sure it covers all international windowsHot_Charlie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:57 amBut when do the youngsters get the opportunity to get into the team? It was easier when the PRC/LV/AWC was a semi-serious competition, but now it's almost (well it is) a Championship level comp. Arguably it'll mean only the very best will break through perhaps.
Yes, in theory it's great to not have any Prem matches in the international windows, but there are other consequences. One of those will be the loss of the traditional opportunities to help players make the big step from an ever decreasing quality PRC to the Prem/ERCC.
Re: Exiles set for Exile?
What people seem to forget is that there is a recommendation of a player playing maximum of 30 games a season.
So not World Cup Season England 12 games, 5 in 6N 3 tour games & 4 Autumn. Club 18 Prem games, 4Champ Cup,22 minimum with potential of 2 Prem playoffs & 4 more Champ games, I know unlikely but possible, so max of 28.
So not World Cup Season England 12 games, 5 in 6N 3 tour games & 4 Autumn. Club 18 Prem games, 4Champ Cup,22 minimum with potential of 2 Prem playoffs & 4 more Champ games, I know unlikely but possible, so max of 28.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
Really sorry you’ve lost me. Are you saying that because players can play upto 30 games, they should play in every matchFarmboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:24 pm What people seem to forget is that there is a recommendation of a player playing maximum of 30 games a season.
So not World Cup Season England 12 games, 5 in 6N 3 tour games & 4 Autumn. Club 18 Prem games, 4Champ Cup,22 minimum with potential of 2 Prem playoffs & 4 more Champ games, I know unlikely but possible, so max of 28.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
I think he was saying it was possible for us to do so, in reality of course players will pick up injuries and niggles that are better off being rested so young players will still get their chances providing the new boss has the courage to play themRugbygramps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:30 pmReally sorry you’ve lost me. Are you saying that because players can play upto 30 games, they should play in every matchFarmboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:24 pm What people seem to forget is that there is a recommendation of a player playing maximum of 30 games a season.
So not World Cup Season England 12 games, 5 in 6N 3 tour games & 4 Autumn. Club 18 Prem games, 4Champ Cup,22 minimum with potential of 2 Prem playoffs & 4 more Champ games, I know unlikely but possible, so max of 28.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
Thanks Jimmy. There is also an opportunity for all players with a brand new coaching team in place , who will have less preconceptions, so those playing in positions where the normal incumbent will be at RWC will have time to impressJimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:32 pmI think he was saying it was possible for us to do so, in reality of course players will pick up injuries and niggles that are better off being rested so young players will still get their chances providing the new boss has the courage to play themRugbygramps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:30 pmReally sorry you’ve lost me. Are you saying that because players can play upto 30 games, they should play in every matchFarmboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:24 pm What people seem to forget is that there is a recommendation of a player playing maximum of 30 games a season.
So not World Cup Season England 12 games, 5 in 6N 3 tour games & 4 Autumn. Club 18 Prem games, 4Champ Cup,22 minimum with potential of 2 Prem playoffs & 4 more Champ games, I know unlikely but possible, so max of 28.
Re: Exiles set for Exile?
The point I was tryin to make was that an England ,haven't looked but similar for other Internationals, player shouldn't be playing all club games enabling others opportunities but not as many as beforeRugbygramps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:40 pmThanks Jimmy. There is also an opportunity for all players with a brand new coaching team in place , who will have less preconceptions, so those playing in positions where the normal incumbent will be at RWC will have time to impressJimmy Skitz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:32 pmI think he was saying it was possible for us to do so, in reality of course players will pick up injuries and niggles that are better off being rested so young players will still get their chances providing the new boss has the courage to play themRugbygramps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:30 pm
Really sorry you’ve lost me. Are you saying that because players can play upto 30 games, they should play in every match
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
It’s just a massive mess. I think we can all talk around it as much as we like but the fundamental problem remains, the game doesn’t generate enough income.
So generate more, how? With the number of clubs reducing leading to a further reduction in supporter and TV income.
Reduce costs, I guess that means predominantly player wages so that means we have even less chance of competing with the Irish and French clubs. So less chance of lucrative European fixtures.
I can’t see anyway forward without a radical shake up. I can’t really see any clear options but I do fear the worst for the game in England. I think ultimately we will finish up with a cricket type model where the whole focus is on the national side. The chances of Tigers and others maintaining large stadiums, staff and squads will be almost impossible and so the race to the bottom for club rugby in England has begun!!
So generate more, how? With the number of clubs reducing leading to a further reduction in supporter and TV income.
Reduce costs, I guess that means predominantly player wages so that means we have even less chance of competing with the Irish and French clubs. So less chance of lucrative European fixtures.
I can’t see anyway forward without a radical shake up. I can’t really see any clear options but I do fear the worst for the game in England. I think ultimately we will finish up with a cricket type model where the whole focus is on the national side. The chances of Tigers and others maintaining large stadiums, staff and squads will be almost impossible and so the race to the bottom for club rugby in England has begun!!
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
Yep, looking forward to my fellow forum members coming up with that long list of positives!
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?
Not a popular view I know, and I’m aware that there are many on here who will cease to watch the club game if it happens, but if Rugby is to survive as a professional sport, serious consideration needs to be given to the New Zealand model.
5 district teams, with fixtures against Welsh, Scottish, Irish regions, that are fed by club sides of all levels, with the 2 seasons running separately to each other.
So the best example I can give is there is an Auckland Blues super rugby side, but there is also an Auckland club side, who play in the countries league structure, used to be sponsored by Air New Zealand, where there are 3 or 4 leagues with relegation or promotion. So fans at all levels still have club rugby to watch with the promise of bigger things if they are successful
5 district teams, with fixtures against Welsh, Scottish, Irish regions, that are fed by club sides of all levels, with the 2 seasons running separately to each other.
So the best example I can give is there is an Auckland Blues super rugby side, but there is also an Auckland club side, who play in the countries league structure, used to be sponsored by Air New Zealand, where there are 3 or 4 leagues with relegation or promotion. So fans at all levels still have club rugby to watch with the promise of bigger things if they are successful
Re: Exiles set for Exile?
Not the worst idea and maybe the only option if the players cannot accept a massive salary cut. I do not begrudge the players earning big wages, they deserve that they get and more but, and I am only plucking figures out the air here, for a club to have a decent sized squad etc I think that the top salaries cannot be more than maybe £200000.00 for the most exceptional players but with most players massively lower than that. Sadly most will be on low to middle management wages and not executive salaries. Wages to international players should be paid pro rata and so if they are getting an international match fee for a period, the club should not have the pay the wages.Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:08 pm Not a popular view I know, and I’m aware that there are many on here who will cease to watch the club game if it happens, but if Rugby is to survive as a professional sport, serious consideration needs to be given to the New Zealand model.
5 district teams, with fixtures against Welsh, Scottish, Irish regions, that are fed by club sides of all levels, with the 2 seasons running separately to each other.
So the best example I can give is there is an Auckland Blues super rugby side, but there is also an Auckland club side, who play in the countries league structure, used to be sponsored by Air New Zealand, where there are 3 or 4 leagues with relegation or promotion. So fans at all levels still have club rugby to watch with the promise of bigger things if they are successful
I am not trying to demonise players, I think they deserve massive salaries far higher than they get now but rugby tried to run before it could walk and now the wages need to backtrack to reflect club income. The knock on effect may be that, for a while, the international side starts to struggle and then maybe the RFU will start supporting and promoting the club game so as it can find and fund the next generation of star players.