Exiles set for Exile?

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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

ads wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:47 pm We need two 12 team leagues with P&R. And then the cup comp involving all 24 teams.
But we also need people to pull their fingers out and get on with trying to make it happen.

IMO anyway...
or 2 10 team leagues meaning prem games shouldn't have to be played during international weeks you could use them for the cups
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by ads »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:57 pm
ads wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:47 pm We need two 12 team leagues with P&R. And then the cup comp involving all 24 teams.
But we also need people to pull their fingers out and get on with trying to make it happen.

IMO anyway...
or 2 10 team leagues meaning prem games shouldn't have to be played during international weeks you could use them for the cups
Yep, I'd be happy with that, as long as 10 teams means enough games to make money.

Right, let's make it happen!!....
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

A ten team league is fine as long as the fans accept the effective inflation on their season ticket prices.

Only a few years ago you'd have 11 home Prem matches, 3 home Euro matches and then 3 Cup matches. So 14 "elite" games and 3 "variable strength games". 17 matches in total, plus a decent number of A-league fixtures you could go to wherever they were.

With a 10 team league, if they keep the same basic format used in both Prem and ERCC, this will come down to 9 home Prem matches with 2 home Euro matches. 11 "elite" matches plus whatever we get from the Prem/Champ Cup. I assume that'll remain roughly the same with 3 guaranteed home matches. In total, 14 games.

The other issue is that in that's three matches of decent ticket and associated catering/retail income lost too.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by loretta »

I imagine there’d be a mixed reaction. Some wouldn’t buy it, but quite a few others would welcome the loss of club/country clashes. Gates often seem down on “clash” days, and I imagine there are quite a few that go to the club and head off straight after the final whistle to watch the internationals on delay, reducing hospitality takings further. Add in the potential for dropping many of the Friday night fixtures (fewer games to cover by the telly), which are popular with some but again the turnout often seems low, and overall it might be argued that many supporters would be getting better value for their money. Actually buying tickets for games that they’re likely to be able to attend.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Tigerbeat »

Rugby will never get the level of coverage that football, cricket and other sports get. At the moment you can watch cricket every day (IPL) and football is on 4-5 days a week between September and May. TV are willing to pay big money as the number of games are higher and greater exposure.
Rugby probably have about 50% less games than football and are only played at weekends so not sure that a big TV deal would be forthcoming and reducing the league from what was 13 to 10/11 is not great.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

To drop to 10 properly does mean less rugby on your ticket, but hopefully higher quality club rugby. However to do it properly needs a few things sorted IMO.

1) Needs a properly set up Championship, probably same 10 team division. Needs to be properly funded so they can compete, so relegation from the Prem does not cripple clubs financially, but also that they are not the team assured to be promoted the next year.

2) NEEDS proper promotion and relegation between the divisions.

3) England players NEED to be eligible to play for England at a Championship club. It may seem daft and insignificant, but with how close the league is England stars will migrate to only sign long contracts at the big clubs who won't be in relegation fights, this leads to disparity between player quality etc, issues retaining players breaking through. I think it unlikely England players will end in the Championship, but means they will remain more spread out in the Prem, not just at the top 4 clubs.

4) Keep the improvements to the PRC adding Championship teams in it. However it needs to ensure that teams have matches and revenues even if they don't get through group stages. Have some sort of seeding comp for the next season, so each team in it keeps playing till the end so fills all international windows.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by wigworth »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:59 am
3) England players NEED to be eligible to play for England at a Championship club. It may seem daft and insignificant, but with how close the league is England stars will migrate to only sign long contracts at the big clubs who won't be in relegation fights, this leads to disparity between player quality etc, issues retaining players breaking through. I think it unlikely England players will end in the Championship, but means they will remain more spread out in the Prem, not just at the top 4 clubs.
I agree with you point and that if this were to become a reality some agreement would need to be formally written up to allow players to be released to England from Championship clubs similar to Prem clubs. From memory I can't remember this being a particularly big issue when Sarries went down for a season as I do remember their players still playing for England.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by TTRITH »

I think two top leagues of 10 teams works, and probably works quite well. I'd also like to see two up, and two down, but that's just me, and probably isn't practical in the long term.

If NH season stays the same, which it should be IMO, there are 39 game weeks.

Take 6 for the Six Nations, and 4 for the AI's, that's 29.

18 regular weeks, plus 2 weeks of play offs - that's 9.

8 weeks of European rugby.

No league rugby takes place in during international weeks.

English Rugby Cup - takes place in these gap weeks. 5 pools of 4, each pool consisting of 2 premiership and 2 championship teams. Each team plays each other twice, home and away. 5 winners and the 3 best place runners up go into the semi final and finals.

Add a stipulation that no player can play more than 1,280 minutes of regular league matches. That's the full length of 16 matches, so in effect, 2 rest days. For every additional 240 minutes of rugby (I.E Internationals or English Rugby Cup) that removes 80 minutes from the regular league matches. This ensures that all players, not just the internationals, are getting ample rest time, but also allowing the clubs to manage this, meaning that you are unlikely to get the situation like the AIs where teams would be unable to field any internationals in the league.

Each club would also have a minimum of 12 home games. Premiership clubs would have 15 games, although you could try to bring back the British and Irish Cup for those in the Championship.

English Rugby Cup should exclusively be on free-to-air. A commitment for at least 2 Championship matches a week to be broadcast, and all 20 clubs to get a share of the TV income.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

TTRITH wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:42 pm Add a stipulation that no player can play more than 1,280 minutes of regular league matches. That's the full length of 16 matches, so in effect, 2 rest days. For every additional 240 minutes of rugby (I.E Internationals or English Rugby Cup) that removes 80 minutes from the regular league matches. This ensures that all players, not just the internationals, are getting ample rest time, but also allowing the clubs to manage this, meaning that you are unlikely to get the situation like the AIs where teams would be unable to field any internationals in the league.
Where does the ERCC fit in this plan, considering our most used player this year played 26 matches across the Prem and Europe (well below the recommended threshold which is still around 30-35 depending on game time) and just over 2000 minutes.

I don't think the clubs will buy into a system where they can play barely half that.
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

Prem and Championship should merge and sell the rights to both divisions together then TV gets the extra games.

Maybe someone like ViaPlay who don't have any English football rights would want both to build their audience
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by ads »

So in a few posts we've pretty much sorted ot the future of Rugby Union in England.

Why can't the big wigs do this, or do they simply not want to....
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

TTRITH wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:42 pm English Rugby Cup should exclusively be on free-to-air. A commitment for at least 2 Championship matches a week to be broadcast, and all 20 clubs to get a share of the TV income.
I still say regular FTA coverage is the best way to attract new fans to the sport, they are the only sports fan not saturated with content, put it on Free To Air every week, people will watch it.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

ads wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:54 pm So in a few posts we've pretty much sorted ot the future of Rugby Union in England.

Why can't the big wigs do this, or do they simply not want to....
Rugby claims to be professional but is still very much amateur in every way that counts long term
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by tigerburnie »

I thought you were all aware of the proposals currently under discussion at levels down as far National leagues, for 24/25 season it is proposed by the RFU that two leagues of 10 teams, Premiership 1 and 2 with relegation and promotion. Two National 1 leagues, North and South, with four National 2 leagues below that presumably are North, South, East and West, but I'm not sure it actually says that.
One team from Prem. one would be relegated with one from Prem 2 promoted, a bit more complicated at the bottom of Prem two as I believe the bottom team would drop to Nat one, but the second from bottom would go into a play off against the Nat 1 playoff loser. Nat one would have a playoff between North and South, winner goes up to replace bottom Prem two club, loser of the play off has a further play off with Prem two second from bottom side, winner is in Prem two..............I think.
Nat 1 would have two relegations from each league and one up from each of the four Nat two leagues..........possibly. I haven't read it myself, but someone who has been at a meeting did tell me this, if my memory is correct. :smt004
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Re: Exiles set for Exile?

Post by Tigersunited »

Hot_Charlie wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:00 am
ads wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:08 am You've got to speculate to accumulate or what ever....

Lots of companies borrow to expand and increase revenue. If you have a chance to bolster your squad and potentially do better in the league/europe and therefore increase revunue with more sponsors and bums on seats etc. then why not.

Yes its a finacial risk, and the clubs need to ask themselves and their backers about it, but for some it could be worth it. Others maybe not and you need to know your limits in any kind of business. If the opportunity isn't there, then the growth is stifled.
I think the big problem with that is you can be the most successful club in Europe and you still aren't going to make money out of rugby. Yes, you've got to speculate to accumulate but in the current climate, why on earth would you speculate on English domestic rugby?
I understand all this, but struggle to see the sense of a governing body increasing the CAP after 2/3 clubs have gone bust. Seems irresponsible, unless they have increased central revenue with TV and sponsorship deals.
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