Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:55 pm
Incredibly sad and some huge names on that list. 2 that stand out from scanning through Carl Hayman and Tigers Harry Ellis.
This has the potential to kill off rugby union by bankrupting the unions and pushing insurance premiums so high as to make them unaffordable
Very sad and horrendous for anybody who has a brain injury. If you play rugby, you (should) know there is risk though. This was even the case in 80s and 90s.
Bankrupting the unions is certainly one outcome which could kill the game, but making the game near-on touch rugby would also kill it.
I wonder if such lawsuits ever happen in sports such as MMA, judo, karate, or boxing.
I’m sure that this ( a three week stand down ) used to be the rule years ago .. certainly when I was playing, in the 70s 80s and early 90s.. it’s only since professionalism and big clubs wanting star players back quickly that these rules have been relaxed/ bent / removed! It’s no wonder the first batch of professional players are the ones suffering now. Sadly I think not only those individuals but rugby as a whole is going to pay a very heavy price.
With professionalism the players got bigger and fitter due to the full time status. Defence got more organised and more upright double hits became more regular. Players trained more using contact and wanted to play as often as possible as a showcase of their skills to increase their contract value.
I do know several young amateur players who no longer play due to past concussion so it does happen lower down but these people have stopped before such damage, hopefully, as they step sown from a hobby snd are still around the game rather than loosing a livelihood.
My understanding from watching the Steve Thompson documentary, highly recommend for anyone who hasn’t, is that the larger issue is these sub concussions that occur through training and games, where to put it crudely the brain gets bounced around inside the skull. The estimate was that Thompson had 80,000 of these during his career
Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:45 am
My understanding from watching the Steve Thompson documentary, highly recommend for anyone who hasn’t, is that the larger issue is these sub concussions that occur through training and games, where to put it crudely the brain gets bounced around inside the skull. The estimate was that Thompson had 80,000 of these during his career
That is scary!
Do you have a link to this documentary? Is it on YouTube?
Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:45 am
My understanding from watching the Steve Thompson documentary, highly recommend for anyone who hasn’t, is that the larger issue is these sub concussions that occur through training and games, where to put it crudely the brain gets bounced around inside the skull. The estimate was that Thompson had 80,000 of these during his career
That is scary!
Do you have a link to this documentary? Is it on YouTube?
There doesn’t appear to be a direct link on YouTube though there are plenty of associated articles. It was a BBC programme so may be on I player if you have access
Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:45 am
My understanding from watching the Steve Thompson documentary, highly recommend for anyone who hasn’t, is that the larger issue is these sub concussions that occur through training and games, where to put it crudely the brain gets bounced around inside the skull. The estimate was that Thompson had 80,000 of these during his career
That is scary!
Do you have a link to this documentary? Is it on YouTube?
There doesn’t appear to be a direct link on YouTube though there are plenty of associated articles. It was a BBC programme so may be on I player if you have access
For anyone that watches IACGMOH,I don’t personally but was already aware of these kind of numbers. Tony Bellew,the former WBC CW world champion estimates that he got hit in the head around 50k a times a year! I don’t believe that is an exaggeration either! And I understand that some will say well sparring gloves are bigger ,but believe me I’ve boxed and those gloves don’t protect those being hit as much as you think, they are there to protect your hands more. And head guards even though they protect to some extent are there more for preventing potential cuts leading up to a fight. A lot of fighters don’t wear them anyway. Im not saying there aren’t cases of brain injuries in boxing but why are there many,many more in rugby? I honestly don’t know ,does anyone? Is it because the downtime in boxing is far stricter than rugby?
Knock outs or even knock downs in some cases in boxing are followed with strict rules regarding no sparring for X amount of days after. In rugby the concussion protocols were dreadfully policed,anyone remember George Smith in the Lions game being kayoed,falling all over the place,being walked off the pitch because he couldn’t walk straight and then coming back on in the same game?!
Last edited by Scott1 on Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Scott1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:42 am
For anyone that watches IACGMOH,I don’t personally but was already aware of these kind of numbers. Tony Bellew,the former WBC CW world champion estimates that he got hit in the head around 50k a times a year! I don’t believe that is an exaggeration either! And I understand that some will say well sparring gloves are bigger ,but believe me I’ve boxed and those gloves don’t protect those being hit as much as you think, they protect your hands more. And head guards even though they protect to some extent are there more for preventing potential cuts leading up to a fight. A lot of fighters don’t wear them anyway. Im not saying there aren’t cases of brain injuries in boxing but why are here many more in rugby? I honestly don’t know ,does anyone?
I'm no expert, but I would imagine the forces involved in many rugby collisions are more extreme than being punched.
Just playing devils advocate for a bit. I can see boxing etc as different due to rest periods etc. At the top end of the sport, you are looking at months between bouts and whilst there is training and sparing, There is also a lot of down time to recover. There is also the element of being self employed and so all risk and protection as well as medical care is down to the individual.
The case with rugby is one of employer and employee and the duty of care owed by an employer and potentially the pressure put on the employee to get back on the pitch. That relationship only exists in team sports and so that is why we see the cases here and the big case in the NFL.
The issue is that the NFL had the money to buy their way out of it. Rugby does not and a loss in this case could easily spell the end of the professional sport.
What is interesting is that I am seeing more on social media from those involved in the sport that they are sympathetic but not supportive of those bringing the action. There is very much an attitude of they knew what the risks were and what they were getting in to.
Scott1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:42 am
For anyone that watches IACGMOH,I don’t personally but was already aware of these kind of numbers. Tony Bellew,the former WBC CW world champion estimates that he got hit in the head around 50k a times a year! I don’t believe that is an exaggeration either! And I understand that some will say well sparring gloves are bigger ,but believe me I’ve boxed and those gloves don’t protect those being hit as much as you think, they protect your hands more. And head guards even though they protect to some extent are there more for preventing potential cuts leading up to a fight. A lot of fighters don’t wear them anyway. Im not saying there aren’t cases of brain injuries in boxing but why are here many more in rugby? I honestly don’t know ,does anyone?
I'm no expert, but I would imagine the forces involved in many rugby collisions are more extreme than being punched.
Could it be the whiplash that’s the problem? Whether they are more extreme or not the boxers punishment is more localised to the brain and will happen many,many times more over a career
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
And don’t forget we had players falsifying their own concussion baseline tests so they could get back on the field, I do wish I could find that article!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
This does seem to be a problem of the professional era, though. Unless I've missed it, I don't recall seeing any amateur era players with anything like the same problems and that was in an era where fists and heads connected quite often. Is it just the sheer size of players nowadays? I mean, you have centres now who would have been considered big for a lock back then.
Old Hob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:08 pm
This does seem to be a problem of the professional era, though. Unless I've missed it, I don't recall seeing any amateur era players with anything like the same problems and that was in an era where fists and heads connected quite often. Is it just the sheer size of players nowadays? I mean, you have centres now who would have been considered big for a lock back then.
As I understand it the problem is the frequency of these sub concussions, whip lashes, that occur. As I’ve mentioned it’s is estimated that Thompson experienced over 80,000 of these during his career.
Before the professional era there wasn’t time for the amount of contact training that takes place as players had to hold down other jobs
