Who is in your World Cup 23?

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Tigers86asw
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:46 pm

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by Tigers86asw »

wigworth wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:45 am I guess another name that is not mentioned much now given he hasn't played in a good long while but does Nic Dolly have a outside shot at the WC squad.
Dolly’s a good club player but I don’t see what he brings that’s a point of difference. He’s not a brilliant scrummager or a damaging carrier. He’s quick around the park but that’s about it really. Good basics but not much more for me.
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7351
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Tigers86asw wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:34 am
wigworth wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:45 am I guess another name that is not mentioned much now given he hasn't played in a good long while but does Nic Dolly have a outside shot at the WC squad.
Dolly’s a good club player but I don’t see what he brings that’s a point of difference. He’s not a brilliant scrummager or a damaging carrier. He’s quick around the park but that’s about it really. Good basics but not much more for me.
Thacker is the hooker that's playing a "similar" style to Dolly. For me he's probably put himself ahead of Dolly in recent weeks. Question is does Dolly have time to go back in front, I'd doubt it, with the minutes Montoya is likely to play
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4574
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by mol2 »

I don't get the suggestion of picking Thacker.
We saw Englands' forwards get boshed by a big French pack - so why bring in a 5'8 lightweight hooker because he is good in attack?
Dolly hasn't played for a year (nearly) so the chances of him getting fully fit and playing himself in to contention are slim.

Is Steward really lacking in pace? Perhaps applied when he first got into the Tigers side but as he has matured he has got a lot faster.

Obano - promising a year or two back but looked plain ordinary against us last week. Our second string tight head and loose head were more than enough to deal with Bath's England props. Contrary to the press view, playing for bath is not a marker for greatness.

OHC - looked completely at sea in his appearances this 6N. Granted - having Farrell blocking the wide channels didn't help but looked like a lost boy. Needs time to settle in with England, which they don't have prior to the world cup.

Scrum half - a fully fit Quirk and JVP would be my picks.

The back row is the conundrum. Martin at 6. Willis perhaps but who is 8?
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

LE18 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:27 pm Interesting to see these early selections, after yesterdays display, Stewards lack of pace was shown up but you both have stuck with him.
Yet for the first try despite having to turn he kept pace with Ramos and actually closed on him.

For the later tries he was out on his feet. Unusual, but a sign of much work England had had to do.

I'd be interested to see Freddie's sprint times, so the myth could be put to bed.
PeteK
Top Cat
Top Cat
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:46 pm

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by PeteK »

Going to have to go for the team on Saturday.

Thomas Ramos; Damian Penaud, Gael Fickou, Jonathan Danty, Ethan Dumortier; Romain Ntamack, Antoine Dupont (c); Gregory Alldritt, Charles Ollivon, Francois Cros, Paul Willemse, Thibaud Flament, Dorian Aldegheri, Julien Marchand, Cyril Baille
westwinds31
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5960
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:26 am

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by westwinds31 »

mol2 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:01 am I don't get the suggestion of picking Thacker.
We saw Englands' forwards get boshed by a big French pack - so why bring in a 5'8 lightweight hooker because he is good in attack?
Dolly hasn't played for a year (nearly) so the chances of him getting fully fit and playing himself in to contention are slim.

Is Steward really lacking in pace? Perhaps applied when he first got into the Tigers side but as he has matured he has got a lot faster.

Obano - promising a year or two back but looked plain ordinary against us last week. Our second string tight head and loose head were more than enough to deal with Bath's England props. Contrary to the press view, playing for bath is not a marker for greatness.

OHC - looked completely at sea in his appearances this 6N. Granted - having Farrell blocking the wide channels didn't help but looked like a lost boy. Needs time to settle in with England, which they don't have prior to the world cup.

Scrum half - a fully fit Quirk and JVP would be my picks.

The back row is the conundrum. Martin at 6. Willis perhaps but who is 8?
Despite the noise around what a massive player pool we have to choose from, this post above and others just confirm to me that we simply don't have the calibre of player to challenge the Irish, French, Springboks, Kiwis and others at the moment.
kpj tiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5274
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm
Location: Stoney Stanton

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by kpj tiger »

So here's what I'd go with, personally I don't think there will be this many relative newcomers brought in but I think it offers a good balance of youth and experience. Players like George, Lawes, Youngs, Watson and even Farrell are in their last world cup cycle and I don't think its worth throwing all that experience away now.

Center for me is a real area of concern, I love Dan Kelly but I'm not sure he has the X-factor for international 12, personally I think he could end up being another Anthony Allen. That said I still believe he is the best England have currently, outside of him I think its a shootout between Lawrence and Marchant, this is a 50/50 for me as both have shown glimpses of real class but have both also gone MIA as well. Guy Porter, Fraser Dingwall and Henry Slade would be close to this team too but that last sentence applies to them too.

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Lawes
6. Martin
7. Pearson
8. J.Willis (Cunningham-South after the world cup potentially)
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. Kelly
13. Marchant
14. Murley
15. Steward

16. Cowan Dickie
17. Rapava-Ruskin
18. Sinckler
19. Chessum
20. Curry
21. JVP/Mitchel/Quirke
22. Smith/Ford
23. Malins
Leicestertinytiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

This six nations really could’ve done with blooding the likes of Martin, Ted Hill (injured) and Pearson. Martin probably will make the WC squad but too late probably now for Pearson.

SB gonna be praying that the veterans in Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Farrell, Nowell, Watson find some form.
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4574
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by mol2 »

I think Father Time has caught up with Nowell and May. Neither have the pace any more.

Arguably Borthwick should give thought to the future: do England have any realistic chance at the a World Cup?
Realistically no so perhaps thought should be given to transition to the future. Get a core of younger players to gain the experience to prepare a team for the future, be that the intervening 6N and the next World Cup, rather than take a side that have repeatedly been found wanting and has not really got much chance of making the semifinals.

Was it not Bill Sweeney who became head of UK swimming who upset a number of the experienced stars by not taking them to the Olympics. He made it clear that going to the Olympics in his team was not what he saw as a reward for long service. If you are not a contender, you are not going with the exception of promising youngsters who might benefit from the experience. Taking experienced swimmers with no hope of making the finals was a waste of time, money and depriving others from learning from being there.
It wasn’t popular but within a few years we were seeing GB swimmers could competing for medals.

Looking backwards to experience that won’t be there at the next one won’t cut it. If you have gaps in key positions like prop you could make a case for Cole and others. Martin At 6 or Lawes? One has the potential to be an outstanding international who could be the next Hill. Raffi Quirk or YBY?
Macko or VRP? May or Arundell?
I am not suggesting taking the under 20 side to the World Cup but where the gap is small, move on.
Last edited by mol2 on Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kpj tiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5274
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm
Location: Stoney Stanton

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by kpj tiger »

mol2 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:29 pm I think Father Time has caught up with Nowell and May. Neither have the pace any more.
Agreed although I still think Nowell could offer something if used correctly as pace was never his strongest attribute to begin with, that said neither of them have been tearing it up in the prem recently anyway
trendylfj
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2377
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:16 am
Location: MARKET HARBOROUGH

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by trendylfj »

I don't think I will be alone in thinking that SB is trying to speed up the recycling and that JVP was slow on Saturday. Instead of putting the ball out to the nearest available player, he seemed as though he was having to wait for the others to get into position. Whose fault that was, I don't know but it certainly got quicker when Mitchell came on. I have to say that he is not my No1 choice at present and I would have Quirke every time. My biggest concern is our back row and our defence. Watson flew out of the line and allowed France to walk in a try and that was one of the faults Manu was rightly criticised for on many occasions. It is fine when it comes off but the best in the world will exploit it. We also missed too many tackles. Maybe we should write off this 6 nations and use the Ireland game to bring in one or two players with a little more pace and see how they get on against the best team in the world. They will certainly be a weaker team than the one they turned out against Scotland but will still be a stern test. Don't think for a minute he will but the recent additions to the squad seem to indicate that there will be some non-regulars in the 23
Hehehehehehehehe
wigworth
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by wigworth »

trendylfj wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:56 pm I don't think I will be alone in thinking that SB is trying to speed up the recycling and that JVP was slow on Saturday. Instead of putting the ball out to the nearest available player, he seemed as though he was having to wait for the others to get into position. Whose fault that was, I don't know but it certainly got quicker when Mitchell came on. I have to say that he is not my No1 choice at present and I would have Quirke every time. My biggest concern is our back row and our defence. Watson flew out of the line and allowed France to walk in a try and that was one of the faults Manu was rightly criticised for on many occasions. It is fine when it comes off but the best in the world will exploit it. We also missed too many tackles. Maybe we should write off this 6 nations and use the Ireland game to bring in one or two players with a little more pace and see how they get on against the best team in the world. They will certainly be a weaker team than the one they turned out against Scotland but will still be a stern test. Don't think for a minute he will but the recent additions to the squad seem to indicate that there will be some non-regulars in the 23
France were very good at disrupting the ruck in a number of ways, you could tell from the very first ruck this was going to be trouble all game. I got a bit annoyed at JVP at the very first ruck where he appeared to be absent and France just came around and took the ball. On closer inspection Chessum and Itoje pull JVP into the ruck when they are attempting to clear it out, subtly Paul Willemse also slow rolls out in the direction of the England players coming to clear out and trips Sinckler which means he couldn't make an effective clear out.
Leicestertinytiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

kpj tiger wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:36 pm
mol2 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:29 pm I think Father Time has caught up with Nowell and May. Neither have the pace any more.
Agreed although I still think Nowell could offer something if used correctly as pace was never his strongest attribute to begin with, that said neither of them have been tearing it up in the prem recently anyway
France and Ireland seem to play a strike runner and all-rounder. May is the shadow of the player he was. Watson could be the strike runner at 11 and Nowell the all-rounder at 14. He was never the fastest but probably could’ve done more than Malins. Good physicality in the tackle and offers something at the breakdown.
jgriffin
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8074
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:49 pm
Location: On the edge of oblivion

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by jgriffin »

"Despite the noise around what a massive player pool we have to choose from, this post above and others just confirm to me that we simply don't have the calibre of player to challenge the Irish, French, Springboks, Kiwis and others at the moment."
I think the player pool thing is a myth. Yes we have a lot of participants, but so does the Chinese Army!
Most of our players are fun players, and the bottleneck created in the structures by scouting and selection is only just becoming alleviated by casting a much wider net for athletic kids. Up until now, the rewarded few funnelling up into pro rugby are generally early developers.
Given the poor structures compared with Ireland, and the failure to cross-code scout (again, compared with Ireland), once you add on a predilection for big trundlers, you have the failure of English rugby. We also have the English version of the kamikase WRU just to top it all, presiding over a fall in participation while canape-ing it up at Twickers. :smt011
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4574
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Who is in your World Cup 23?

Post by mol2 »

Some of the clear outs at the ruck were naive. If players roll into you make it obvious. Someone with Sinckler’s experience should know this.
Post Reply