England squad

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ay2oh
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Re: England squad

Post by ay2oh »

mol2 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:01 am Limit the AIs to a max of 3 played on successive weekends.
Summer tours are essentially cash cows for the opposition so 1 warm up match and 2 or 3 tests max. These must be early so that players have time to recover and prepare pre season back with their clubs.

I think Borthwick will have the common sense to recognise that conditioning is something that should be left to the clubs to do with input if England feel specific areas need addressing. The Jones era of returning players to clubs injured because he thought that overly intense sessions were essential to the team’s preparation. You don’t make meaningful gains to physical fitness in a few days’ training. This takes weeks or even months. The sessions should be about familiarisation with game plans and strategy, not getting fit.
Very true. If your not fit you shouldn’t be in the England squad n the first place.
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

I always assumed that the summer tours and autumn internationals were pretty much interdependent, we come and play you in the Autumn to fill the coffers if you come to us in the Summer, you send a development squad in the Summer, we send a development squad in the Autumn etc so pretty much Tit for Tat.

What I feel should happen is that we limit the amount of England matches that players can be picked for in a season. except in World Cup years. The end result would be a larger pool of internationally experienced players. Would never happen but I would like to see players only able to play the 6 Nations or the Autumn internationals and only being able to go on the summer tour every other year.
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

If you wanted to really force change, move a few sets of European Cup fixtures to international weeks. I can see the outrage now a perennial winners such as Leinster have to field academy players as the first team squad are all away with Ireland.
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Re: England squad

Post by loretta »

GB72 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:57 pm If you wanted to really force change, move a few sets of European Cup fixtures to international weeks. I can see the outrage now a perennial winners such as Leinster have to field academy players as the first team squad are all away with Ireland.
Now, that would be hilarious!
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Re: England squad

Post by Tigerbeat »

GB72 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:12 am I always assumed that the summer tours and autumn internationals were pretty much interdependent, we come and play you in the Autumn to fill the coffers if you come to us in the Summer, you send a development squad in the Summer, we send a development squad in the Autumn etc so pretty much Tit for Tat.

What I feel should happen is that we limit the amount of England matches that players can be picked for in a season. except in World Cup years. The end result would be a larger pool of internationally experienced players. Would never happen but I would like to see players only able to play the 6 Nations or the Autumn internationals and only being able to go on the summer tour every other year.
The issue is that all international games generally carry test status and count towards the world rankings which are ultimately used for World Cup seeds.
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GB72
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:12 pm
GB72 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:12 am I always assumed that the summer tours and autumn internationals were pretty much interdependent, we come and play you in the Autumn to fill the coffers if you come to us in the Summer, you send a development squad in the Summer, we send a development squad in the Autumn etc so pretty much Tit for Tat.

What I feel should happen is that we limit the amount of England matches that players can be picked for in a season. except in World Cup years. The end result would be a larger pool of internationally experienced players. Would never happen but I would like to see players only able to play the 6 Nations or the Autumn internationals and only being able to go on the summer tour every other year.
The issue is that all international games generally carry test status and count towards the world rankings which are ultimately used for World Cup seeds.
True but all club games count towards league positions, cup success and the promotion and expansion of club rugby as a whole. Just trying to think of ideas that may create a degree of parity between club and country. At the moment, the players get their full club wage, time off, no extra matches over a seaon plus and extra 17grand per appearance, England get whoever they want without paying an annual salary or picking up the pieces following injury etc and the clubs, they get to pay their players the full wage, see them for just over half a season and do not have them on the pitch enough to capitalise on any promotional benefit of playing for England. Oh and teams like Tigers and Saracens get no more money for putting in nearly half of the current England squad than those clubs putting in a few or no players. That is just not right.

I am not as extreme as some in that I am also an England supporter and love watching England matches but the one sided situation we have now just cannot continue.
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Re: England squad

Post by ay2oh »

Agree with this entirely.
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Re: England squad

Post by Tigerbeat »

I believe that the RFU have negotiated an agreement with Premiership Rugby and the clubs for the time that England players are available with regards to midweek Training sessions, rest weeks, rest after tours and availability prior to and during the Autumn internationals and Six Nations.
Premiership Rugby and clubs should take some of the responsibility for this issue, not all laid at the door of the RFU. They entered into the agreement.
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GB72
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:39 pm I believe that the RFU have negotiated an agreement with Premiership Rugby and the clubs for the time that England players are available with regards to midweek Training sessions, rest weeks, rest after tours and availability prior to and during the Autumn internationals and Six Nations.
Premiership Rugby and clubs should take some of the responsibility for this issue, not all laid at the door of the RFU. They entered into the agreement.
Agreed, there is responsibility on both sides and so maybe it is time for the clubs to accept that the fans are also not happy with the status quo. I am sure that no fan would want to hold back the international career of any player but the club game is nearly on its knees and it needs the product and personalities to promote the game and bring the crowds in and those players are simply not avaiilable enough of the time. We have 7 players in the England squad. Lets take a situation, kid watches the 6 Nations, a new rugby fan. He loves the England games and wants to go and see Freddie Steward play. 'Sorry kid, he is on a rest period, maybe in a month or so we can see him at the Tigers'. Kid loses interest, fan lost. Meanwhile, clubs are trying to get people through the turnstyles and over the next 2 months, what do we have to promote to compete with watching the 6 Nations on the TV, teams of reserves.

Go back to the start of the season. Most sports build up the excitement to show their star players and new signings. Ther rugby season starts with fans working out who is allowed to play and the first day of the season is another one with all of the big names missing. Pretty laughable for a professional sport. Imagine the outrage if the Premier League was told it had to play on with the reserves during the world cup.

You now cannot even say that they best teams will finish at the top of the league as there is such a random element of who plays who without their internationals.

Whilst initially said as a joke, I wonder if fans would rather have a period of several weeks with players available for league games instead of European matches. There would, in fact, be the potential for more parity in Europe if some clubs lost their internationals for at least one round of matches.
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Re: England squad

Post by Tiglon »

Reconciling club v country is one of the biggest challenges for rugby. I'm a big fan of internationals and the 6N has been my favourite tournament (even though I'm struggling to "like" the current England team), but I really hope rugby doesn't end up like cricket.

To be honest, with the current format of the Champions Cup, you could probably have a couple of rounds of it on at the same time as AI's and it wouldn't affect anything. I would prefer they brought back the old format though, where almost every match was a "must win".
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Re: England squad

Post by Scott1 »

Whatever way you go about I'm sorry but we are on to a loser! It's a fact that casual fans drive our game. There are countless fans who will go to a 6N game and not go to another game all season and I bet there's a huge amount who will probably not even watch another game let alone go to one! Not to mention the TV audience. The crossover just isn't there and never has been sadly.
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Re: England squad

Post by Smudge »

Scott1 wrote:
Whatever way you go about I'm sorry but we are on to a loser! It's a fact that casual fans drive our game. There are countless fans who will go to a 6N game and not go to another game all season and I bet there's a huge amount who will probably not even watch another game let alone go to one! Not to mention the TV audience. The crossover just isn't there and never has been sadly.
I totally agree Scotty. The lobbying needs to start and increase until something is done and the Club game becomes the dominant competition as it is in so many other sports. Not just on line opinions but actual letters to the RFU and just maybe, some supportive opinion in the press.
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

Smudge wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:14 pm Scott1 wrote:
Whatever way you go about I'm sorry but we are on to a loser! It's a fact that casual fans drive our game. There are countless fans who will go to a 6N game and not go to another game all season and I bet there's a huge amount who will probably not even watch another game let alone go to one! Not to mention the TV audience. The crossover just isn't there and never has been sadly.
I totally agree Scotty. The lobbying needs to start and increase until something is done and the Club game becomes the dominant competition as it is in so many other sports. Not just on line opinions but actual letters to the RFU and just maybe, some supportive opinion in the press.
I am not sure how you go about making club rugby the dominant aspect of the sport. To do that would mean that club rugby would have to be more popular, week in week out than international rugby, more of a draw to TV companies, sponsors and advertisers than international rugby. get more column inches in the media than international rugby and bring in the revenue so as the clubs can assert their position of dominance over the RFU including by paying wages to players that would encourage them to pick club over country. Sadly, that is not going to happen. I am sure that country cricket did not want to be where it is but that is the reality of the situation and no amount of lobbying to the RFU will change our position. The Premiership is an independent commercial entity that needs to sort itself out but until all of the clubs are filling their stadium every week and crowds of 20000 plus are the norm for all clubs, the club game will remain secondary to international rugby in the eyes of most people.
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Re: England squad

Post by Tigerbeat »

Football is not in the same scale of contact as rugby so less injuries. Imagine clubs playing 6-7 games a month, the playing squad could be decimated. Take into account the concern for player welfare so not sure how the Club game is going to grow.
It does not have anywhere near the same finance, infrastructure or public interest that has been afforded to football which is played on a global level.
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:56 am Football is not in the same scale of contact as rugby so less injuries. Imagine clubs playing 6-7 games a month, the playing squad could be decimated. Take into account the concern for player welfare so not sure how the Club game is going to grow.
It does not have anywhere near the same finance, infrastructure or public interest that has been afforded to football which is played on a global level.
Totally agree, was more commenting on the suggestion of lobbying the RFU to make the club game the dominant factor. We have to admit that it is in the international game that rules the roost where rugby is concerned and so, whilst the clubs and the league can maybe to more to try and have better access to internationals or access at better times but, in reality the clubs are at the beck and and call of the international teams and if they do not like it, out come the threats of a few franchise teams and centralised contracts.
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