England squad

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Chobbsy
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Re: England squad

Post by Chobbsy »

Chobbsy wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:24 pm Now that Daly is out for the whole of the 6N can someone hide Guy Porter and Anthony Watson PLEASE !!!!
GUYS !!!!! what did I say hide Watson !!
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markharbtiger
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

Not a jock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:59 am Oh dear, yet more moans about a depeleted club squad due to international call-ups.

The national team has always had primacy over the clubs, perhaps even more so in the professional era, and I doubt it's going to change....
IMHO this is one of the problems: it's a relict from the amateur days. Our focus should be on clubs.
That said, if we are to remain in the current setup, it ought to be possible to better manage both players and timetable. I simply don't buy the argument that how we currently do things is the only way.
ourla
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Re: England squad

Post by ourla »

We were 6th/7th before the weekend when we have a team/squad packed full of internationals. We have underperformed with them available to us, simple as that.

If we'd have been playing well we would be sitting were Sale and Sarries are and feeling chilled about losing a couple during the 6N.
ourla
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Re: England squad

Post by ourla »

I can't see how you can play the Club season completely outside of Internationals.

Can someone put a draft of how this might work?

Le'ts assume only the 6N and AI's have to be considered and summer tour, RWC, Lions is outside the normal season. To make it really easy let's assume 10 team Prem and there are 6 European pool matches followed by 4 knock out stages.
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Re: England squad

Post by Tigerbeat »

ourla wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:15 am I can't see how you can play the Club season completely outside of Internationals.

Can someone put a draft of how this might work?

Le'ts assume only the 6N and AI's have to be considered and summer tour, RWC, Lions is outside the normal season. To make it really easy let's assume 10 team Prem and there are 6 European pool matches followed by 4 knock out stages.
18 League Round
1 Semi Final Weekend
1 GP Final
4 Pool Games - Europe
4 Knockout weekends inc Final (16, QF, SF, F)_
3/4 Autumn Internationals
5 Six Nations

Minimum of 36 weekends of rugby.......difficult to do without playing games on International Weekends with 29 Games in Domestic / European Rugby
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mol2
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Re: England squad

Post by mol2 »

A breakaway isn't going to happen because there isn't the money to make it worthwhile for the teams or for players to give up on England funding. A battle may be brewing about how the funds generated are distributed with the clubs feeling that in spite of providing the players their share of the returns was not reflected. The reaction of the other home nations when England wanted to negotiate their own TV rights (in the way France do) with threats of expulsion suggests the old farts are very much present.

There has to be more cooperation between England and the clubs. The responses of senior RFU officials to the demise of Worcester and Wasps suggests they still don't appreciate the existence of the professional game as the primary employers of the players and the role the academies of those clubs have in producing England players. They didn't accept the concept of the professional game even when it became clear that the sport was increasingly professional (more in some countries than others) and shamateurs given expenses. They see the model adopted by cricket with centrally contracted players as the one they would prefer with clubs simply handing over control in the way that cricket does, just as that seems to be struggling in an era of franchise cricket.
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

As I'm unwell at home I'll leave the mechanics to someone else. But some key observations:
1. They seem to manage in the round ball game.
2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled. Do we need ALL the additional club cup competitions alongside the domestic league?
3. What's wrong with delaying the 6N competition until the domestic leagues have all completed?
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Re: England squad

Post by Tigerbeat »

markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am 2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled.
This is the off season for the Southern Hemisphere (SH) teams - getting rid of them would mean fewer internationals and would severely dent the finances of the RFU.
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GB72
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Re: England squad

Post by GB72 »

markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am As I'm unwell at home I'll leave the mechanics to someone else. But some key observations:
1. They seem to manage in the round ball game.
2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled. Do we need ALL the additional club cup competitions alongside the domestic league?
3. What's wrong with delaying the 6N competition until the domestic leagues have all completed?
With regards the round ball game, you can play 2, or even 3, matches in a week which rugby cannot do. The pinacle of football is in the club competition as well as that being the location of all the money and so the clubs can dictage to a certain extent, the international calendar. The clubs could break away as they have the funding to do it and the players would follow.

There is too much rugby crammed in but hte Autumn Internationals are a big one when it comes to filling the RFU coffers. There are not that many club comps. The PRC is mainly to give the reserves a run out in the absence of an A league, that just leaves Europe and the League. I would be more than happy for some of the European rounds to be played in international breaks but that will neve happen. Can you imagine the outrage if, for example, Leinster had to play a couple of rounds in Europe without their irish internationals.

Delaying the 6 Nations is not the worst idea but that would then mean no summer tour. We do not head South in the summer to line the coffers of the southern hemisphere unions, they do not send teams so us in the Autumn and so that will not happen.

Sadly and inevitably, we are heading to a future of 2 or 3 franchised teams and central contracts. I have struggled for a solution but all of them end with the demise of club rugby as we know it and it being a case of when not if.
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

Tigerbeat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:34 am
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am 2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled.
This is the off season for the Southern Hemisphere (SH) teams - getting rid of them would mean fewer internationals and would severely dent the finances of the RFU.
Exactly. Off season for them (not us).

Given that premier league football has almost double the number of teams, all playing home/away, on the face of it I don't think 36 games is a lot.
ourla
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Re: England squad

Post by ourla »

markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am As I'm unwell at home I'll leave the mechanics to someone else. But some key observations:
1. They seem to manage in the round ball game.
As covered by GB72 it's not comparable. But just to add there are still complaints from club fans in football, either because players get crocked or because they don't follow the international team and they don't like the interruption to the schedule. Also to note that there are quite a lot of Africans playing in the Prem now who booger off for the African Nations mid-season - some of them key players - like Salah and Mane (now transferred) for Liverpool.
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled. Do we need ALL the additional club cup competitions alongside the domestic league?
Not sure what you are suggesting tbh. The unions want internationals for the £££. The Clubs want to have as many good attractive fixtures as possible. And then of course there is player/squad building. If we just had the 6N and the Prem coaches/players would have nothing else to get game time.
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am3. What's wrong with delaying the 6N competition until the domestic leagues have all completed?
Because I think the TV audiences, attendances, players, etc. are primed at this time. It captures a wider audience. It's the prime/premier rugby competition in the northern hem.
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

GB72 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:42 am

Sadly and inevitably, we are heading to a future of 2 or 3 franchised teams and central contracts. I have struggled for a solution but all of them end with the demise of club rugby as we know it and it being a case of when not if.
That's a bleak prognosis. I suppose it comes down to the power of the clubs, or lack thereof as in England.
Although there are many things wrong with professional sports in N America, we might like to adopt some ideas. But their focus is totally on the club.
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

ourla wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:54 am
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am As I'm unwell at home I'll leave the mechanics to someone else. But some key observations:
1. They seem to manage in the round ball game.
As covered by GB72 it's not comparable. But just to add there are still complaints from club fans in football, either because players get crocked or because they don't follow the international team and they don't like the interruption to the schedule. Also to note that there are quite a lot of Africans playing in the Prem now who booger off for the African Nations mid-season - some of them key players - like Salah and Mane (now transferred) for Liverpool.
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am2. Is there just too much Rugby being crammed in? Autumn Internationals have always seemed badly timed for N. Hemisphere teams, and I am not sure much would be lost if these were culled. Do we need ALL the additional club cup competitions alongside the domestic league?
Not sure what you are suggesting tbh. The unions want internationals for the £££. The Clubs want to have as many good attractive fixtures as possible. And then of course there is player/squad building. If we just had the 6N and the Prem coaches/players would have nothing else to get game time.
markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:29 am3. What's wrong with delaying the 6N competition until the domestic leagues have all completed?
Because I think the TV audiences, attendances, players, etc. are primed at this time. It captures a wider audience. It's the prime/premier rugby competition in the northern hem.
The reaction "we can't change as it will lead to a loss of revenue and/or we're used to doing it at the current timing" is why nothing ever changes! Priming audiences etc is REALLY not much of a constraint! Out of the box thinking needed here!
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Re: England squad

Post by Scott1 »

markharbtiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:56 am
Scott1 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:16 am
TTRITH wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:15 am 15. Charlie Atkinson
14. Chris Ashton
13. Matt Scott
12. Guy Porter
11. Harry Potter
10. Handre Pollard
9. Tom Whiteley
1. James Cronin
2. Julian Montoya
3. Will Hurd
4. Calum Green
5. Harry Wells
6. George Martin
7. Hanro Liebenberg
8. Jasper Wiese

16. Charlie Clare
17. Tom West
18. Nephi Leatigaga
19. Ely Snyman
20. Olly Cracknell
21. Sam Edwards
22. Jimmy Gopporth
23. Harry Simmons

Even with all our six nations boys out, that is not a weak team to put out. There is great depth at the club, and thats not to mention guys like Ilione and Chessum who are coming through too. The big benefit to the international weeks is that these guys get blooded.
This tight here is why i don't buy the internationals excuse. That's a fantastic 23 considering!
Scott1 what do you mean by an 'internationals excuse'? I assume that you don't think that having 11 (now Watson added) potentially away on 6N duty impacts on our league performance?
The problems are
1. Some of those mentioned in that 23 are unlikely to have played together much for example.
2. When I pay to watch a Tigers game, I'd prefer to see our star players.
The fact that it was used by some for the Saints defeat where we had enough in our squad to win that game!
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Re: England squad

Post by markharbtiger »

Scott1 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:34 pm The fact that it was used by some for the Saints defeat where we had enough in our squad to win that game!
Not by me. But mate - it probably didn't help!
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