Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

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Greenwhiteandred
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Greenwhiteandred »

AViewFromLe2 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:43 pm
sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm
TTRITH wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:01 am If you were to say to me Gregor Townsend comes in, and brings Geoff Parling (Forwards/Line Out), Joe Worsley (Defence/Breakdown), and a new scrum coach whilst retaining Smith and Deacon, I'd bite your hand off.

Geoff is getting rave reviews down under and is currently with the Rebels.
Joe was highly rated in France and is currently with Ampthill.

Gregor would be able to give the coaches instructions and get his plans in place prior to returning from the World Cup.

Whilst Geoff and Joe might be a pipe dream, I think that's what we need to be targeting. A Head Coach who can start getting the pieces into place, who fully takes over the reigns post world cup whilst the coaches install his methodology.

If I was a betting man, I'd still say the favourite for the job despite the results is Wigglesworth.
Sadly it is exactly what I fear. Because Tigers have proved time and time again that as long as us loyal supporters continue to spend our hard earned cash despite the dross rugby and league position then the club will spend and do as little as they can to replace Borthwick and Sinfield. Its criminal that we face being exactly where we started when Borthwick arrived.
I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense Sapajo. What top quality coach that was available and wanted to come to Leicester when Steve & Kev left, that Leicester overlooked? Let's hear it. It is very easy to throw pop shots at the club, so let's hear some suggestions whom Tigers overlooked when giving the interim role to Wiggy. With some evidence as well that we did not sound them out.

If this is all one big conspiracy from the start to do this on the cheap and give it to Wiggy long-term, why did we sound out Lancaster in the summer? Why have we interviewed McFarland? Why is Townsend such a leading candidate for the job? If it was always going to be Wiggy because he is cheap, why have we paid a load of money to Oval Insights to search for a new HC? We are undergoing an interview process, with candidates interviewing for the job, both internal and external. If Wiggy gets the job, he would be a risk as it is probably too early for him, but at least we have gone through an interview process to get there.

The club is not immune from criticism, but some of the stuff lobbed at the club is getting silly. If we as fans are being screwed over by Wiggy being named Interim, let's hear the evidence that backs that up.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

Your wrong, fact is Tigers is a business and not a charity. I just love blind faith based upon zero evidence. As for WW appointment no one knows who if anyone was sounded out it's all here say. Some folks have very short selective memory

We have heard the guff from the club about appointing specialist consultants to comb the world for the best coach then only to employ O'connor?
Last edited by sapajo on Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:02 pm Your wrong, fact is Tigers is a business and not a charity. I just love blind faith based upon zero evidence. As for WW appointment you all have very short selective memories have heard the guff about appointing a team of consultants to come the world for the best coach then only to employ O'connor?
And you think the club haven't learnt from that and the issues it led to?
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm
sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:02 pm Your wrong, fact is Tigers is a business and not a charity. I just love blind faith based upon zero evidence. As for WW appointment you all have very short selective memories have heard the guff about appointing a team of consultants to come the world for the best coach then only to employ O'connor?
And you think the club haven't learnt from that and the issues it led to?
Correct
Last edited by sapajo on Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AViewFromLe2
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by AViewFromLe2 »

sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:02 pm Your wrong, fact is Tigers is a business and not a charity. I just love blind faith
You have not addressed a single one of my points.

But let me answer you. I have never claimed we are a charity. You are right, we are a business, which is why we are investing money to have a look at who is available to give us the best chance of finding someone, or at least draw up a sensible shortlist. Why would we spend that money if we were always going to give it to Wiggy because he is cheap? If Wiggy was the ultimate answer from the start like you claim, he would not be Interim atm, he would already have the job now.

It is not blind faith, it is using all the available evidence in front of us. It is also not rushing to conclusions. The club have not veen made an announcement yet you're accusing them of screwing us over. So, i ask you again, which World Class coach did we overlook when giving the Interim Job to Wiggy? Name, and evidence that we did not sound them out.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:11 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm
sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:02 pm Your wrong, fact is Tigers is a business and not a charity. I just love blind faith based upon zero evidence. As for WW appointment you all have very short selective memories have heard the guff about appointing a team of consultants to come the world for the best coach then only to employ O'connor?
And you think the club haven't learnt from that and the issues it led to?
Correct
I disagree. Since then there has been a significant change at board level, much better targeted recruitment elsewhere and better systems in place. I have a lot of time and respect for our current CEO and doubt we would have this issue going forward.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by johnthegriff »

Tigers recruitment of head coaches in the professional era.
Bob Dwyer, hardly a cheap option, replaced by Dean Richards, probably a cheap but successful option followed by John Wells who we should have made more effort to keep. Pat Howard then took over and he also did ok leaving to return to Australia in a year when we won the Premiership but lost in the Heineken Cup Final. He was succeeded by Lofreda and then Hyneka Meter neither cheap or successful options although the latter due to personal reasons had to leave mid season. Cocker took over on a temporary basis but was so successful that he became permanent. Unfortunately despite winning trophies and never finishing below fourth in the table he was sacked and ultimately replaced by O' Connor, no idea if he was cheap but he was a disaster eventually sacked leaving Geordan Murphy to do his best with the poor unfit team he inherited, the following season being a World Cup year Geordan did his best with twelve of his first team away and in the knowledge that Borthwick was taking over as soon as he could be freed from his England duties and then the pandemic struck.
The club have not always taken the cheap and easy option but spending a lot of money on coach recruitment does not necessarily achieve success. We all want the best man for the job and we want him there for a long time. Having our coach upsticks and leave mid season left us with little option but to appoint an interim coach, it may be that he will, as he gains experience prove to be a viable candidate for the job. Alternatively we could be talking to someone ideal that could be available after he has fulfilled his responsibilities to his current employer. Personally I would not want anyone who would leave his present role without due notice to his present team.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by ourla »

Professional sports clubs are businesses but like some other businesses they are often much more than that to the people involved. It's nice like a supermarket where you do your weekly shop but more like say a much loved public house or theatre. Where people over many years have had some great times and some not so great, have made friends. People involved in the running of it may have had a job and earnt a salary from it but also have a fondness for the place and want to keep it going and thrive.
AViewFromLe2
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by AViewFromLe2 »

But you have not once addressed my points or questions and you are now deflecting because you have nothing to back it up. You have accused the club of doing this on the cheap, where is your evidence for that? What World Class coach did we overlook, that was available, that wanted to come to Tigers as soon as Steve and Kev left?
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by AViewFromLe2 »

As an aside - the suggestions of Parling & Worsley as coaches are fantastic ones.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TTRITH »

AViewFromLe2 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:43 pm I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense Sapajo. What top quality coach that was available and wanted to come to Leicester when Steve & Kev left, that Leicester overlooked? Let's hear it. It is very easy to throw pop shots at the club, so let's hear some suggestions whom Tigers overlooked when giving the interim role to Wiggy. With some evidence as well that we did not sound them out.

If this is all one big conspiracy from the start to do this on the cheap and give it to Wiggy long-term, why did we sound out Lancaster in the summer? Why have we interviewed McFarland? Why is Townsend such a leading candidate for the job? If it was always going to be Wiggy because he is cheap, why have we paid a load of money to Oval Insights to search for a new HC? We are undergoing an interview process, with candidates interviewing for the job, both internal and external. If Wiggy gets the job, he would be a risk as it is probably too early for him, but at least we have gone through an interview process to get there.

The club is not immune from criticism, but some of the stuff lobbed at the club is getting silly. If we as fans are being screwed over by Wiggy being named Interim, let's hear the evidence that backs that up.
To play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out, but I do think the club favour a younger coach that they can perhaps pay less whilst they prove themselves. Sir Kev, remember, was unproven at this level.

The noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.

As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.

If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.

All I ask, of a very measured response, is to not mention about Oval Insights. We've been here before, and it is alleged that the findings were overruled in favour of Matt O'Connor. The club don't have the greatest of track records with bringing in Head Coaches/Director of Rugby's - not appalling but certainly some big mistakes in there. And you're always going to remember the mistakes over the successes in the hard times.

I agree some of the comments are a bit extreme, but I do understand some of the concern. Whilst the RFU have thrown us a hospital pass, the club should have been prepared for Borthwick leaving. I think the world and their dog knew Steve was off at the end of the season. Perhaps, and hopefully, Andrea has this all sorted, the new head coach is already signed up and is currently thinking about their staff for next season. We'll see.
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sapajo
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

TTRITH wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:47 pm
AViewFromLe2 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:43 pm I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense Sapajo. What top quality coach that was available and wanted to come to Leicester when Steve & Kev left, that Leicester overlooked? Let's hear it. It is very easy to throw pop shots at the club, so let's hear some suggestions whom Tigers overlooked when giving the interim role to Wiggy. With some evidence as well that we did not sound them out.

If this is all one big conspiracy from the start to do this on the cheap and give it to Wiggy long-term, why did we sound out Lancaster in the summer? Why have we interviewed McFarland? Why is Townsend such a leading candidate for the job? If it was always going to be Wiggy because he is cheap, why have we paid a load of money to Oval Insights to search for a new HC? We are undergoing an interview process, with candidates interviewing for the job, both internal and external. If Wiggy gets the job, he would be a risk as it is probably too early for him, but at least we have gone through an interview process to get there.

The club is not immune from criticism, but some of the stuff lobbed at the club is getting silly. If we as fans are being screwed over by Wiggy being named Interim, let's hear the evidence that backs that up.
To play devils advocate, available coaches in the interim - Eddie Jones, Matt Proudfoot, Dave Rennie. Nick Easter is coaching National League 1, and Danny Wilson. Danny Wilson for what it's worth is now in place for the next few months. Dean Richards, of course, is semi retired and perhaps should have been invited on board to help Wiggy. I can provide no evidence we didn't sound these guys out, but I do think the club favour a younger coach that they can perhaps pay less whilst they prove themselves. Sir Kev, remember, was unproven at this level.

The noises come out of the club suggest they are big fans of Wigglesworth. I was unconvinced on his appointment, our attack, his responsibility at the start of the season, was toothless. Given that Brett has led the team during the PRC, it seems like an attempt to cling onto the Borthwick mindset. Our shortlist appears to be Townsend, McFarland, MacDonald and Wigglesworth.
I don't know much about MacDonald, McFarland appears to have turned a corner with Ulster, and Townsend has not just been linked with us. Wigglesworth is, IMO, on that list solely because the club don't want to lose him to England.

As it stands, I see a team that has no confidence, no clear plan, and short of ideas. I do not have faith that Wigglesworth is going to be able to turn it around. If we fail to finish in the "proper" European spaces I think it would be harder to bring in a top coach. I think it would become more of better to appoint the guy you know, then bring in someone from outside, especially if the rest of the sounded out targets were too reject us.

If Wigglesworth gets the job on a full-time basis, the proof in the pudding of whether the club have "cheaped out" will be in what coaches he is surrounded by. He'd need an experienced head in that set up, and outside voices. He'd need someone that would challenge him, as well as give him the support he needs.

All I ask, of a very measured response, is to not mention about Oval Insights. We've been here before, and it is alleged that the findings were overruled in favour of Matt O'Connor. The club don't have the greatest of track records with bringing in Head Coaches/Director of Rugby's - not appalling but certainly some big mistakes in there. And you're always going to remember the mistakes over the successes in the hard times.

I agree some of the comments are a bit extreme, but I do understand some of the concern. Whilst the RFU have thrown us a hospital pass, the club should have been prepared for Borthwick leaving. I think the world and their dog knew Steve was off at the end of the season. Perhaps, and hopefully, Andrea has this all sorted, the new head coach is already signed up and is currently thinking about their staff for next season. We'll see.
Excellent post. :smt023 Perhaps others may actually take it onboard instead of being in denial as to the reality of the clubs current coaching predicament
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ancientmariner
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by ancientmariner »

There seems to be a general assumption that Richard Wigglesworth is here "on the cheap". There is no evidence for that - nor indeed knowledge of the salaries of any of the players or coaches.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Scott1 »

Some people get way too defensive! Sapajo is entitled to his opinion,the club is an absolute shambles at present and we've been here before. I'm taking absolutely no notice of this specialist recruitment team,MoC anyone?!
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

ancientmariner wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:36 pm There seems to be a general assumption that Richard Wigglesworth is here "on the cheap". There is no evidence for that - nor indeed knowledge of the salaries of any of the players or coaches.
Your right but fact is WW has no previous coaching experience or success. I do not believe given this fact he could legitimately lay claim to the same pay as Borthwick previously commanded based upon his CV. That is why in relative terms I believe he is" on the cheap ". If the club are paying WW as much as Borthwick or indeed any other top quality coach then more fool them.
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