Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

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mol2
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by mol2 »

Kicking infield needs the opposition to make an error, a full back who can compete and take the ball or a wing/FB who can tap it back to supporting runners.

Once the first is clearly not happening (without the threat of a juggernaut wing about to hit you Premiership full backs rarely drop it). Without Freddie we lack a full back who can take the ball so you need the tap back to be supported. Watson made the tap back but no player was close enough to support on Saturday)

In which case kick from touch from your own 22 and compete at the line out.

All we give is opportunity to the opposition backs to run at us and tackling practice for our pack.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

mol2 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:52 pm Kicking infield needs the opposition to make an error, a full back who can compete and take the ball or a wing/FB who can tap it back to supporting runners.

Once the first is clearly not happening (without the threat of a juggernaut wing about to hit you Premiership full backs rarely drop it). Without Freddie we lack a full back who can take the ball so you need the tap back to be supported. Watson made the tap back but no player was close enough to support on Saturday)

In which case kick from touch from your own 22 and compete at the line out.

All we give is opportunity to the opposition backs to run at us and tackling practice for our pack.
Your right its clear for us all to see. It simply begs the question why do we persist with it ? This is a return to the Murphy kicking game tactics which did not work then and does not work now either. Watching this on the pitch I had to pinch myself to remind myself what season we are now in.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by ads »

I don't mind them trying it, if the midweek training is telling them it'll work, but having no plan b is criminal.

There are enough gaps in play for the coaches to get a message on to the pitch....
chewbacca
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by chewbacca »

sapajo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:02 pm
mol2 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:52 pm Kicking infield needs the opposition to make an error, a full back who can compete and take the ball or a wing/FB who can tap it back to supporting runners.

Once the first is clearly not happening (without the threat of a juggernaut wing about to hit you Premiership full backs rarely drop it). Without Freddie we lack a full back who can take the ball so you need the tap back to be supported. Watson made the tap back but no player was close enough to support on Saturday)

In which case kick from touch from your own 22 and compete at the line out.

All we give is opportunity to the opposition backs to run at us and tackling practice for our pack.
Your right its clear for us all to see. It simply begs the question why do we persist with it ? This is a return to the Murphy kicking game tactics which did not work then and does not work now either. Watching this on the pitch I had to pinch myself to remind myself what season we are now in.
I suspect we persist because the statistics say the teams that kick the most win the most. That is a bald statistic which makes no consideration of the other factors required to execute and compete following the kick. I suspect we lack the 'compete' element either due to a lack of pace or inaccuracy of the kick, which makes the tactic ineffective. As you say, stop doing it.
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sam16111986
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sam16111986 »

chewbacca wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:22 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:02 pm
mol2 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:52 pm Kicking infield needs the opposition to make an error, a full back who can compete and take the ball or a wing/FB who can tap it back to supporting runners.

Once the first is clearly not happening (without the threat of a juggernaut wing about to hit you Premiership full backs rarely drop it). Without Freddie we lack a full back who can take the ball so you need the tap back to be supported. Watson made the tap back but no player was close enough to support on Saturday)

In which case kick from touch from your own 22 and compete at the line out.

All we give is opportunity to the opposition backs to run at us and tackling practice for our pack.
Your right its clear for us all to see. It simply begs the question why do we persist with it ? This is a return to the Murphy kicking game tactics which did not work then and does not work now either. Watching this on the pitch I had to pinch myself to remind myself what season we are now in.
I suspect we persist because the statistics say the teams that kick the most win the most. That is a bald statistic which makes no consideration of the other factors required to execute and compete following the kick. I suspect we lack the 'compete' element either due to a lack of pace or inaccuracy of the kick, which makes the tactic ineffective. As you say, stop doing it.
The kicking game was a significant factor in winning us the title. The kicking game works to give us territory and possession in the opposition 22 time and again in every game we play. It's the same moan that seems to persist in rugby, kicking is boring and it's done by negative teams. It may be boring but it's generally done the most by the most successful and the most attacking teams.

Our problem lies entirely with what we do when we get the territory and possession. Our attack ball in hand is ponderously obvious and so we are incredibly reliant on the rolling maul where every team is now tooling up their mail defence before playing us knowing this. On the rare occasions we actually run a set play we do well but they are so rare it's infuriating. Even simple things like players coming back on the angle or running on the inside shoulder of the ball carrier are missing. That's before we get to the lack of support for either offload or rucking over should we ever surprise everyone and make a half break.

Here's Squidge's thoughts on kicking by the way;
https://youtu.be/1mHrT62VzM0

Some Ulster posters on another board seem certain Dan MacFarland has interviewed for the Tigers job.
chewbacca
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by chewbacca »

As you rightly say the kicking game won us the title. Only problem we had an exceptional exponent of that skill as well as his passing and organisation who is no longer with us.
I'm not cynical just experienced
Postiger2
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Postiger2 »

chewbacca wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 pm As you rightly say the kicking game won us the title. Only problem we had an exceptional exponent of that skill as well as his passing and organisation who is no longer with us.
I still genuinely believe George Ford is the best FH on the planet. Phenomenal player
Tiglon
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tiglon »

sam16111986 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:42 pm
chewbacca wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:22 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:02 pm

Your right its clear for us all to see. It simply begs the question why do we persist with it ? This is a return to the Murphy kicking game tactics which did not work then and does not work now either. Watching this on the pitch I had to pinch myself to remind myself what season we are now in.
I suspect we persist because the statistics say the teams that kick the most win the most. That is a bald statistic which makes no consideration of the other factors required to execute and compete following the kick. I suspect we lack the 'compete' element either due to a lack of pace or inaccuracy of the kick, which makes the tactic ineffective. As you say, stop doing it.
The kicking game was a significant factor in winning us the title. The kicking game works to give us territory and possession in the opposition 22 time and again in every game we play. It's the same moan that seems to persist in rugby, kicking is boring and it's done by negative teams. It may be boring but it's generally done the most by the most successful and the most attacking teams.

Our problem lies entirely with what we do when we get the territory and possession. Our attack ball in hand is ponderously obvious and so we are incredibly reliant on the rolling maul where every team is now tooling up their mail defence before playing us knowing this. On the rare occasions we actually run a set play we do well but they are so rare it's infuriating. Even simple things like players coming back on the angle or running on the inside shoulder of the ball carrier are missing. That's before we get to the lack of support for either offload or rucking over should we ever surprise everyone and make a half break.

Here's Squidge's thoughts on kicking by the way;
https://youtu.be/1mHrT62VzM0

Some Ulster posters on another board seem certain Dan MacFarland has interviewed for the Tigers job.
Excellent post.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Pellsey »

Yes, the kicking game did win us the title, but also our maul - our catch and drive.

Neither are working now IMO for two reasons. The first is that teams have learnt to defend against them, especially the rolling maul. The second is that we are not carrying them out as well as we did last year.

IMHO we need to either massively improve both, or try something else. This is IMHO why we need some fresh ideas.
Maybe "take the three" more often! We do have one of the best place kickers around now.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Pellsey »

Postiger2 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:14 pm
chewbacca wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 pm As you rightly say the kicking game won us the title. Only problem we had an exceptional exponent of that skill as well as his passing and organisation who is no longer with us.
I still genuinely believe George Ford is the best FH on the planet. Phenomenal player
I'd second that.
trendylfj
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by trendylfj »

I have said many times on this forum that the kicking game is only as good as the chasers. Unless a receiver is put under some pressure all that tends to happen is that they catch it and either run it back at us and we could be chasing tails or they kick it back and try to put us under pressure. I have NO objections to the kicking game as long as we have chasers available and kickers who are able to say that isn't working - move to plan B o C or D. That is where a world-class coach earns his or her money and more importantly, a world-class leader on the field who can decide that plan A isn't the best option and move on. No point at all kicking to a back 3 who are excellent receivers. Freddie Burns did at least try and mix it up with a chip into space though not always at the right opportunity. As for the next coach - MacFarland is my second choice - Townsend would be my first choice but not until we have given WW a fair chance with a full squad to pick from and organise and implement different plans.
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Offside
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Offside »

The link to Squidge rugby analysis is interesting. We seem to be doing two of his three options only semi successfully this year. We chase and rather than catching we knock it back and this is less clean ball and Saints had a player in the way of ours catching the knock back in the second half. Last year we were catching it and also more opponents fumbled the ball. Everyone has practices catching and also “protecting” the catcher. We also have had turnovers in the following phases if they do catch it but by kicking short to contest we are giving possession to other teams just inside their half. Our defence has been better that the first few games where we seemed vulnerable on the edge when teams went wide. The third option, which all the South Africa clips showed is the kick a few times until the defence is disorganised, particularly forwards end up on the wings and then attack from deep. We do not seem to be doing this in a joined up way yet. Players are running a bit wide rather than at the inside shoulder and drift defence is successfully pushing us out. Potter and Porter are good at breaking those tackles and Watson does find space. Sometimes we need to attack in differ ways to keep the opposition guessing and get player to move up into the defensive line. We do not seem to vary or options much other than single forward runner.
Rolling Maul did suggest Wiese has the best meters made stats in the Premiership this year but it does not seem to have led to the same impact on the score sheet. Is this due to quicker setup of defence or poorer support on our side? I do think the lack of maul success is probably the biggest issue for lower scores on our side this season.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Vern Cotter has just left Fiji, there seems to be a lot of rumours about us
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by RagingBull »

Interesting I rate Cotter tbh has interesting methods though
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by trendylfj »

Saw that he had resigned "for personal reasons" but can't find any rumours about us. He will obviously be in the mix if he is looking for another job but would still rather have Townsend
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