Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
sapajo
Super User
Super User
Posts: 6053
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

ay2oh wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:33 pm I find it quite sad that some posters have such a half empty view of the world and are unable to even attempt to consider others point of view. I await the accusations of anyone who doesn’t share their opinion of being a “ happy clapper”.
Eh?
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
eastyorkstiger
Tiger Cub
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:26 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by eastyorkstiger »

My thoughts the club always knew Borthwick and others were off after the world cup so timings would be round that

Are aled and Wiggy part of Steves team and are here till the summer to try and reduce the impact of everyone going at once??

Eddie going early really messed up our season for want of better words!! Maybe the club have a world cup manager lined up but dont want to say anything yet so that it dosent put pressure on the nations world cup plans, you can see why people are putting 3 and 5 together and getting 7 about Gregor tho

As a Scot i think hes done well with the players available just look at his record vs elEngland or was that Eddies fault :smt005

We have to trust the board on this one surely they have learned from the past and the wrong appointments they have made. Its frustrating for us all esp on the back of the over achievement last year. The important thing is we have the players signed up and there is plenty of quality and talent for a good coach to work with. fingers crossed
fentiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3193
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: Down Under

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by fentiger »

AViewFromLe2: quote]The club has known that Steve would be off at the end of the season, the club would not have expected him to go mid-season. It has already been said publicly by Andrea that all plans were based upon Steve leaving in the Summer. Indeed he probably told us that was going to happen. As a result, given all the work was based upon Steve not leaving now, but later on, it is difficult in my opinion for too much blame to be levelled at the club for where it finds itself presently. There was not a long list of people to come in on an Interim basis in December, and we know that it is extremely difficult to bring someone in long-term now as options are again very limited. Indeed if we had made a long-term decision back in December, everyone would have accused the club of panicking and rushing into a decision./quote]

Precisely! Plenty of blame could be laid at the club's door for poor planning in the past but not on this occasion.
Just say, hypothetically, we could have found a coach who was free halfway through the season, surely that person wouldn't have accepted the position on an interim basis? Therefore Wiggy is, almost certainly, the best option in those circumstances? :smt017
wigworth
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1231
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by wigworth »

fentiger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:10 pm AViewFromLe2: quote]The club has known that Steve would be off at the end of the season, the club would not have expected him to go mid-season. It has already been said publicly by Andrea that all plans were based upon Steve leaving in the Summer. Indeed he probably told us that was going to happen. As a result, given all the work was based upon Steve not leaving now, but later on, it is difficult in my opinion for too much blame to be levelled at the club for where it finds itself presently. There was not a long list of people to come in on an Interim basis in December, and we know that it is extremely difficult to bring someone in long-term now as options are again very limited. Indeed if we had made a long-term decision back in December, everyone would have accused the club of panicking and rushing into a decision./quote]

Precisely! Plenty of blame could be laid at the club's door for poor planning in the past but not on this occasion.
Just say, hypothetically, we could have found a coach who was free halfway through the season, surely that person wouldn't have accepted the position on an interim basis? Therefore Wiggy is, almost certainly, the best option in those circumstances? :smt017
Very reasonable to assume he was, and good on him for stepping up and taking it on as we would have a real problem had he chosen a more obstinate path and decided he wanted to finish out his playing career and not retire prematurely to take the role.
Tykger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:40 am

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tykger »

sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:17 pm
Tykger wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:58 pm
Scott1 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:44 pm Some people get way too defensive! Sapajo is entitled to his opinion,the club is an absolute shambles at present and we've been here before. I'm taking absolutely no notice of this specialist recruitment team,MoC anyone?!
Absolute shambles ?

I don't see any evidence of that. A difficult time, some poor results, but the club is still running well and people are working hard. A long way from 'absolute shambles ' on my scale of catastrophe. Each to their own though.
No one actually knows that the club is still running well and that people are working hard so it remains just a matter of opinion. I pay to watch Tigers play rugby and what I see served up on the pitch is my only gauge. What I see is a massive tail off of form, a side bereft of ideas, devoid of confidence and the same kicking tactics that used to define Sarries. And before the flack starts it's not upto me to come up with how to fix matters or answer what would I do about it. Tigers are a business and its solely the clubs job to remedy our shortcomings, not mine.
Seeing what you see on the pitch may be your only gauge, but I reckon somewhere someone does know that people at the club are working hard. Whether that's the ground staff, stadium engineers, caterers, club shop staff, community project workers, admin staff, finance department etc etc. These people are the fabric of the club which has been described as an absolute shambles. As far as I am concerned these people are far from shambolic, but actually quite amazing. Whether there is physical evidence or otherwise matters not to me, I work on the basis that the club is still functioning, therefore they are working hard, and for that I offer my thanks.
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tiglon »

When people start throwing around words like "shambles" and "devoid of ideas" it's all too hyperbolic for me and bordering on being a bit too personal about people who work for the club I support, in my opinion. They are of course entitled to express their feelings in that way, but I don't have to approve of it.

I don't think Wigglesworth is devoid of ideas, more that the ideas aren't quite coming off at the moment. I see a man who has every chance of becoming a top coach, but it might be that the situation he's been thrown into and the bad luck since he took over will prove to be too much for someone of his inexperience.

It's great to throw around names like Eddie Jones and Rennie, but what makes us think either would be the slightest bit interested in coming to Tigers? Both of their careers have long since progressed beyond club coaching. There was so much empathy for Genge and Ford moving 100 miles home to be closer to their families, but we genuinely think Rennie would jump at the chance to move 12,000 miles away from his family for a step down in his career? I have little doubt that WW is the best choice in the short term, but he will have to get some better results coming in if he's to make a strong case for the permanent gig, especially if Gregor Townsend is a serious option. That said, I think over the last 2 years those at the top of the club will have learnt a lot about what makes a top coach - if they believe that WW has those attributes then it might well be worth giving him the time to grow, he has certainly learnt from the best at Tigers and Sarries and is by all accounts a very knowledgeable and intelligent man.

I trust the club to make a sensible decision on this one, and I honestly think the club is in a good place both on and off the field.

It seems every time we lose 2 or 3 matches some are calling for heads to roll. Be careful what you wish for.

Just to add, I've been in a situation where I've taken over a business after 3 months of a very experienced interim and it was the biggest mess I've ever witnessed. Sometimes a bit of continuity is better than too much change.
LE18
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4840
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:13 am
Location: Great Glen

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by LE18 »

Ok let WW remain as interim, just get him to change the game plan, stop this bl....... kicking, we have players with flair, we have shown it on occasions, Ok we don't have JVP at moment, but we have Pollard, Montosa, Wiese etc, Watson, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward when we have the internationals, so why is our primary plan to kick the ball away?
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tiglon »

LE18 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:03 pm Ok let WW remain as interim, just get him to change the game plan, stop this bl....... kicking, we have players with flair, we have shown it on occasions, Ok we don't have JVP at moment, but we have Pollard, Montosa, Wiese etc, Watson, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward when we have the internationals, so why is our primary plan to kick the ball away?
I don't think it's our primary plan to kick the ball away, we just haven't been able to consistently produce quick enough ball and stay on the front foot - consequently we keep finding ourselves in a situation where the only sensible option is to kick the ball away.
Scott1
Super User
Super User
Posts: 16783
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Scott1 »

Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:46 pm When people start throwing around words like "shambles" and "devoid of ideas" it's all too hyperbolic for me and bordering on being a bit too personal about people who work for the club I support, in my opinion. They are of course entitled to express their feelings in that way, but I don't have to approve of it.

I don't think Wigglesworth is devoid of ideas, more that the ideas aren't quite coming off at the moment. I see a man who has every chance of becoming a top coach, but it might be that the situation he's been thrown into and the bad luck since he took over will prove to be too much for someone of his inexperience.

It's great to throw around names like Eddie Jones and Rennie, but what makes us think either would be the slightest bit interested in coming to Tigers? Both of their careers have long since progressed beyond club coaching. There was so much empathy for Genge and Ford moving 100 miles home to be closer to their families, but we genuinely think Rennie would jump at the chance to move 12,000 miles away from his family for a step down in his career? I have little doubt that WW is the best choice in the short term, but he will have to get some better results coming in if he's to make a strong case for the permanent gig, especially if Gregor Townsend is a serious option. That said, I think over the last 2 years those at the top of the club will have learnt a lot about what makes a top coach - if they believe that WW has those attributes then it might well be worth giving him the time to grow, he has certainly learnt from the best at Tigers and Sarries and is by all accounts a very knowledgeable and intelligent man.

I trust the club to make a sensible decision on this one, and I honestly think the club is in a good place both on and off the field.

It seems every time we lose 2 or 3 matches some are calling for heads to roll. Be careful what you wish for.

Just to add, I've been in a situation where I've taken over a business after 3 months of a very experienced interim and it was the biggest mess I've ever witnessed. Sometimes a bit of continuity is better than too much change.
Not personal so I’m afraid you’re wrong there!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Tykger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:40 am

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tykger »

Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:46 pm When people start throwing around words like "shambles" and "devoid of ideas" it's all too hyperbolic for me and bordering on being a bit too personal about people who work for the club I support, in my opinion. They are of course entitled to express their feelings in that way, but I don't have to approve of it.

I don't think Wigglesworth is devoid of ideas, more that the ideas aren't quite coming off at the moment. I see a man who has every chance of becoming a top coach, but it might be that the situation he's been thrown into and the bad luck since he took over will prove to be too much for someone of his inexperience.

It's great to throw around names like Eddie Jones and Rennie, but what makes us think either would be the slightest bit interested in coming to Tigers? Both of their careers have long since progressed beyond club coaching. There was so much empathy for Genge and Ford moving 100 miles home to be closer to their families, but we genuinely think Rennie would jump at the chance to move 12,000 miles away from his family for a step down in his career? I have little doubt that WW is the best choice in the short term, but he will have to get some better results coming in if he's to make a strong case for the permanent gig, especially if Gregor Townsend is a serious option. That said, I think over the last 2 years those at the top of the club will have learnt a lot about what makes a top coach - if they believe that WW has those attributes then it might well be worth giving him the time to grow, he has certainly learnt from the best at Tigers and Sarries and is by all accounts a very knowledgeable and intelligent man.

I trust the club to make a sensible decision on this one, and I honestly think the club is in a good place both on and off the field.

It seems every time we lose 2 or 3 matches some are calling for heads to roll. Be careful what you wish for.

Just to add, I've been in a situation where I've taken over a business after 3 months of a very experienced interim and it was the biggest mess I've ever witnessed. Sometimes a bit of continuity is better than too much change.
Spot on !
LE18
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4840
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:13 am
Location: Great Glen

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by LE18 »

Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:19 pm
LE18 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:03 pm Ok let WW remain as interim, just get him to change the game plan, stop this bl....... kicking, we have players with flair, we have shown it on occasions, Ok we don't have JVP at moment, but we have Pollard, Montosa, Wiese etc, Watson, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward when we have the internationals, so why is our primary plan to kick the ball away?
I don't think it's our primary plan to kick the ball away, we just haven't been able to consistently produce quick enough ball and stay on the front foot - consequently we keep finding ourselves in a situation where the only sensible option is to kick the ball away.
Sorry to disagree Tiglon, but it certainly looks that way to me.
Tykger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:40 am

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tykger »

LE18 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:50 pm
Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:19 pm
LE18 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:03 pm Ok let WW remain as interim, just get him to change the game plan, stop this bl....... kicking, we have players with flair, we have shown it on occasions, Ok we don't have JVP at moment, but we have Pollard, Montosa, Wiese etc, Watson, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward when we have the internationals, so why is our primary plan to kick the ball away?
I don't think it's our primary plan to kick the ball away, we just haven't been able to consistently produce quick enough ball and stay on the front foot - consequently we keep finding ourselves in a situation where the only sensible option is to kick the ball away.
Sorry to disagree Tiglon, but it certainly looks that way to me.
I think the plan is to play in low risk areas with a chance to win the ball back. When the tactic to achieve that is long aimless kicks to the back three, I agree it seems ludicrous and counter intuitive in respect of the talent we have. Last season with Ford we also had the bomb and ability to find turf in the 22, good tactical options for putting pressure on the opposition. We just seen to have kick it away or box kick now. That said, I thought the young scrum half had a few good box kicks in him on Saturday. With Watson chasing and the likes of our centres following up we should have a good chance of turnovers. I think the problem is a lack of accuracy and breadth of tactical kicking options resulting in frustration.
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Tiglon »

LE18 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:50 pm
Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:19 pm
LE18 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:03 pm Ok let WW remain as interim, just get him to change the game plan, stop this bl....... kicking, we have players with flair, we have shown it on occasions, Ok we don't have JVP at moment, but we have Pollard, Montosa, Wiese etc, Watson, Kelly, Porter, Potter, Steward when we have the internationals, so why is our primary plan to kick the ball away?
I don't think it's our primary plan to kick the ball away, we just haven't been able to consistently produce quick enough ball and stay on the front foot - consequently we keep finding ourselves in a situation where the only sensible option is to kick the ball away.
Sorry to disagree Tiglon, but it certainly looks that way to me.
No need to apologise, it's a matter of opinion and interpretation. Yours is as valid as mine.
Ian Cant
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Ian Cant »

Great post tiglon.
Tigers gave Borthwick time ( and he had lockdown with no relegation) and Richard Wigglesworth is working with a cobbled together coaching team( no disrespect to the new coaches)!
I’m still not sure that we would have performed much better even if Borthwick and Sinfield had still been in charge! As I was there, the Saracens thrashing was by far our worst performance of the season and v Sale at home I think most of us would agree we never looked like winning! Ospreys and Saints we could and should have won.
So we lost to Sale away( nothing new there) and Newcastle away; not unexpected as they’ve beaten Sale and Chiefs when both those teams had few players missing.
Saracens have played the best rugby so deserve to be way out in front.
Sale haven’t had too many players out!
Time for us to get behind our great team like never before.
KiwiTig
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:10 am

Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by KiwiTig »

I couldn’t agree more Ian
Post Reply