Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

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mol2
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by mol2 »

Wigglesworth would be a questionable appointment. Not really shown leadership on the pitch when he has played.
A year as player coach and our attack hasn't been dazzling this season. Not ready for head coach at Premiership level let alone the biggest club.

If we had a plan in place for next season then perhaps we could muddle through with Sinfield in charge but that would not be ideal to get someone to act up only to be replaced.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by kpj tiger »

Probably not realistic but Christophe Urios isn't with a team at the moment, he did pretty good things with Castres (although didn't do amazingly with Bordeaux from what I've seen)
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by wigworth »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by ads »

Agree with the above two posts. No point keeping people that don't want to be here...
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:10 am
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
All goes back to how long this has been on the cards for. If SB has been groomed as the successor to EJ since the start then he would have picked a coaching team to take the journey with him and that may even mean that they all have England release clauses (though the implication that we are playing more hardball with their departure suggests maybe not). Getting a strong suspicion that SB was only even going to be here for one contract but the question is whether the club was also aware.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by JeffBadland »

wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:10 am
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
I've always assumed the reason we managed to secure Waters and Sinfield was the promise that Borthwick would take them with him when he was inevitably appointed by England. It was always my assumption that the club were aware of this and the recruitment of Wigglesworth (and possibly Gopperth) was contingency planning on our part.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:21 am
wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:10 am
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
All goes back to how long this has been on the cards for. If SB has been groomed as the successor to EJ since the start then he would have picked a coaching team to take the journey with him and that may even mean that they all have England release clauses (though the implication that we are playing more hardball with their departure suggests maybe not). Getting a strong suspicion that SB was only even going to be here for one contract but the question is whether the club was also aware.
Pretty sure it was well known and talked about that he was wanting a club top job as part of his plans to succeed Eddie, that's why Tigers made sense. Succeed and it proves himself, fail and it's because the club's in a mess.

It was always would it be 2023 or would it be another world cup cycle.

I suspect the club were fully aware of his England ambitions and have planned accordingly. Thing is this is 6 months before our planning had him leaving.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

JeffBadland wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:32 am
wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:10 am
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
I've always assumed the reason we managed to secure Waters and Sinfield was the promise that Borthwick would take them with him when he was inevitably appointed by England. It was always my assumption that the club were aware of this and the recruitment of Wigglesworth (and possibly Gopperth) was contingency planning on our part.
That does make sense. The only positive from that is that the club should have been well down the path of finding their successors if ,as we assume, they were always aware that a departure at the end of the season was inevitable (and that should have been obvious if new deals had not been agreed with only a matter of months left on the current contracts). The only change is that it has been brought forward a few months.

The overly optimistic part of me (and it is massively optimistic) is that the candidate is already in place and part of the current radio silence (which I would expect anyway) is to allow our announcement of a replaced (even if for next season) at the same time as announcing SBs departure.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by jgriffin »

If we retain Walters, then our key to success IMO is secure. The coaching side is largely well covered bar defence, and as a figurehead I think we could do a lot worse than Diamond (cut from the same cloth as some of our earlier leaders and having shown his worth trying to keep Wuss afloat). In the longer term, who knows......
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by wigworth »

Anyone got any ideas on SA or AUS coaches who might be a good fit? Or even some assistant coaches at other teams who might do well if given a chance?
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

I see Exeter have signed up all of their coaching staff on new contracts today. Expect a lot of that to be happening to stop any approaches from England or, indeed, us. Rest of the clubs happy and relieved for us to be the sacrificial lambs and sensibly making sure that they are not impacted by the wider picture.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:38 pm I see Exeter have signed up all of their coaching staff on new contracts today. Expect a lot of that to be happening to stop any approaches from England or, indeed, us. Rest of the clubs happy and relieved for us to be the sacrificial lambs and sensibly making sure that they are not impacted by the wider picture.
Very sensible move in light of some of the players they are losing.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Scott1 »

JeffBadland wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:32 am
wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:10 am
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:56 am I am slightly gravitating towards the 'rip off the plaster approach' and letting those who want to head to the England set up go now. If they stay, any poor result would be blamed on them not having their eyes fully in the ball and that may be the case. It would be naive to think that they would not be involved in developing the next England team in the background. It would also be very dificult to sell the commitment to the team line to the players if they know you are off at the first opportunity. I am sure that most of us have seen that it is hard getting the most out of people who are serving their notice.

Looking at the season objectively, there is no relegation for a start. Are we going to get top 4, maybe at a push but I am not convinced, are we going to have a shot at Europe, not realistically. Will be qualify for Europe next year, that is pretty likely. So, with the start we have made to the season, a disruption now would not cripple current expectations and it would allow us to demand a higher payment from the RFU and even get a new coaching team in with a chunk of the season left to bed in.

Painfull I know but I say let anyone who wants out now to go now, assuming the agreed compensation is acceptable.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment and I don't think that we should forcefully block them if they do really want to go with him to England, but we should be compensated as I am sure they would not have had a England release clauses in their contracts. I guess the only unknown is if they actually want to go with him, as while this may have been Borthwick's career trajectory I can't imagine that it necessarily would have been in their plans, but I guess time will tell.
I've always assumed the reason we managed to secure Waters and Sinfield was the promise that Borthwick would take them with him when he was inevitably appointed by England. It was always my assumption that the club were aware of this and the recruitment of Wigglesworth (and possibly Gopperth) was contingency planning on our part.
Gopperth perhaps,I'd say that WW was more a SB signing though
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sam16111986 »

wigworth wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:51 am Anyone got any ideas on SA or AUS coaches who might be a good fit? Or even some assistant coaches at other teams who might do well if given a chance?
Kevin Sorrell would be an interesting appointment. Backs/attack coach at Sarries. They've been ruthlessly efficient in attack over his tenure and won a lot of trophies (ahem). They've continually innovated as well. Neither head coach or DOR jobs going to be available there any time soon so he could be tempted away with a top job offer. Obviously an interview process to make sure he's got the same work rate and analytical thinking that seems to permeate the Sarries produced coaches and Borthwick brought with him.
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