Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

[Rugbygramps]

Unfortunately choices always have consequences. In the case of Borthwick choosing to leave our club to be England Coach its our club and its supporters who are now suffering those consequences.

That said I appreciate that some folk may view these as positive consequences

Borthwick was on a trajectory for the top job, which was forshortened by the EJ sacking. Interestingly I actually agree with both the main points being put forward.

I fully understand why he chose to take the opportunity now; to do otherwise could have closed the door forever knowing how clueless the RFU are.

However, I use the word "chose" deliberately because it was his choice and he will have known the consequences of him leaving when he did, and taking Sinfield with him, and rumoured taking Walters and Wigglesworth too. He chose to do it in full knowledge he could be taking the core of the senior Tigers coaching staff out of the club, when the club has little chance of replacing them in an orderly way.

So join me on the fence and look both ways!!

As to whether he is up to the job, I have no more idea other than the qualities he has shown with us.......not the same job as England Head Coach though. I do think he will be judged by the WC because he has left us hastily and has a full 6 Nations to go at. He will have alot more prep time and a more settled coaching team for the WC than our incoming head coach will have for next season.

Edit...all the above does not mean I am happy about the situation

Excellent post Scuttle. Unfortunately once he made his choice, and not to do so would have been fool hardy from his pov, he was always taking his team with him.
I also agree with your other points, maintaining our coaching team would have been preferable, and is he the right fit for a top international job only time will tell

[Robbbo]

I am firmly in the conspiracy theory camp on the chain of events leading up to where we find ourselves now.
By that , I do not mean since the sacking of Eddie, but rather since the original recruitment and appointment of SB and others.

(This is a far milder version of my earlier draft which if posted would probably have been deleted anyway and/or landed me in court)

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation, we are in a right royal mess just now and unlikely to come of it before the start of the 24/25 season. To even achieve that date will take a herculean effort from all the staff - many of whom are not even in post yet.

I hope Andrea and Peter have negotiated a settlement with the RFU that allows for all consequential costs for such a potentially prolonged period of poor performance ?

All in my opinion of course and I hope I am proven to be wrong with respect to how long we will be in the doldrums

[Rugbygramps]

All imo of course but I’m not convinced we are as far in the doldrums as others.
In Europe we are well placed to get a home tie in the last 16 and from there it’s to certain degree in the lap of the gods. A home quarter in Europe against the right opposition and a semi is possible.

In the premiership we are 2 points off Quins in 3rd with 6 home games out of 8 to come. In a league where everyone can beat everyone else, except Saracens and Sale, 3rd is achievable.
Yes there has been a drop off but we are talking single percentage points and getting the finer details right will get a lot of things right.

Happy Clapper rant over but I hope I’m proved right.

[CrumblingTerrace]

All imo of course but I’m not convinced we are as far in the doldrums as others.

The table doesn't lie. We're in the mix for the playoffs. My concern is more the nature of our performances. We are way off last season's level and if we played a semifinal at Sarries or Sale I think we'd get (another) pasting.

[Rugbygramps]

All imo of course but I’m not convinced we are as far in the doldrums as others.

The table doesn't lie. We're in the mix for the playoffs. My concern is more the nature of our performances. We are way off last season's level and if we played a semifinal at Sarries or Sale I think we'd get (another) pasting.

As I say you are looking at at a 5 or 6 % performance swing, and it’s up to the players, imo they’re the ones most responsible, to buy into what the coaches want.

[DeadlyDunc]

1) We hired a coach on the rise & who we know had ambitions to coach England

2) we chose to do so and knew he would almost certainly leave for England if he got a set of results that justified it

3) he over performed and was realistically the only candidate for the job as a result

4) EJ under performed and got the sack

5) RFU want the best man for England and came for SB

6) SB wanted the job and therefore wanted to leave

7) tigers could either force him to stay and have an unhappy SB / KS on the payroll & who would probably end up forcing the move anyway (you see it in pro sport all the time, Fofana at Leicester this last summer springs to mind)

8) if he stays it’s just disruptive as every presser would be asking SB about the job/staying/ his feelings about it etc

9) the club had no choice once they’d made their decision to employ SB and was asked to become England Manager

I harbour no illwill to SB, Tigers chose him knowing he wasn’t likely to be around for long, knowing EJ wouldn’t last beyond the RWC. The RFU have to look after themselves and success in the RWC has a massive impact on their ability to deliver a broad strategy across the game. They don’t owe Tigers anything just as the FA wouldn’t owe City anything if they wanted Brendan Rodgers for the England Football job (unlikely at the mo!).

Tigers haven’t done anything wrong, they can’t nor would they want to force someone to stay if they wanted to move. In all likelihood there were probably clauses in contracts for this situation - SB would have wanted it to protect his ambitions.

IMO we chose SB to effectively rescue the club and if he did then we would ahve had the benefit for 3-4 years.

The question is whether it was worth it and I can only say yes it was; to go from where we were to where we are is worth the pain.

The next huge decision is who comes in to build on the foundations in place. That might be someone likely to be here for eons or, given this is pro sport, more likely that someone coming in does well gets a chance at another top job.

Better to have top coaches come and go due to success than an average coach here for a decade.

[Rugbygramps]

1) We hired a coach on the rise & who we know had ambitions to coach England

2) we chose to do so and knew he would almost certainly leave for England if he got a set of results that justified it

3) he over performed and was realistically the only candidate for the job as a result

4) EJ under performed and got the sack

5) RFU want the best man for England and came for SB

6) SB wanted the job and therefore wanted to leave

7) tigers could either force him to stay and have an unhappy SB / KS on the payroll & who would probably end up forcing the move anyway (you see it in pro sport all the time, Fofana at Leicester this last summer springs to mind)

8) if he stays it’s just disruptive as every presser would be asking SB about the job/staying/ his feelings about it etc

9) the club had no choice once they’d made their decision to employ SB and was asked to become England Manager

I harbour no illwill to SB, Tigers chose him knowing he wasn’t likely to be around for long, knowing EJ wouldn’t last beyond the RWC. The RFU have to look after themselves and success in the RWC has a massive impact on their ability to deliver a broad strategy across the game. They don’t owe Tigers anything just as the FA wouldn’t owe City anything if they wanted Brendan Rodgers for the England Football job (unlikely at the mo!).

Tigers haven’t done anything wrong, they can’t nor would they want to force someone to stay if they wanted to move. In all likelihood there were probably clauses in contracts for this situation - SB would have wanted it to protect his ambitions.

IMO we chose SB to effectively rescue the club and if he did then we would ahve had the benefit for 3-4 years.

The question is whether it was worth it and I can only say yes it was; to go from where we were to where we are is worth the pain.

The next huge decision is who comes in to build on the foundations in place. That might be someone likely to be here for eons or, given this is pro sport, more likely that someone coming in does well gets a chance at another top job.

Better to have top coaches come and go due to success than an average coach here for a decade.

Far too sensible and eloquent post. You’ll find yourself drummed off this forum

[Hot_Charlie]

All imo of course but I’m not convinced we are as far in the doldrums as others.

The table doesn't lie. We're in the mix for the playoffs. My concern is more the nature of our performances. We are way off last season's level and if we played a semifinal at Sarries or Sale I think we'd get (another) pasting.

To be fair, we weren't much worse at Sale than we were last season.

[Scuttle]

All imo of course but I’m not convinced we are as far in the doldrums as others.
In Europe we are well placed to get a home tie in the last 16 and from there it’s to certain degree in the lap of the gods. A home quarter in Europe against the right opposition and a semi is possible.

In the premiership we are 2 points off Quins in 3rd with 6 home games out of 8 to come. In a league where everyone can beat everyone else, except Saracens and Sale, 3rd is achievable.
Yes there has been a drop off but we are talking single percentage points and getting the finer details right will get a lot of things right.

Happy Clapper rant over but I hope I’m proved right.

I feel the same. There are 2 BP wins between 3rd and last so I'm theory any team could make top 4. Whilst we have lost a couple of good players I don't think that changes much as the same team is basically there, and Genge has not exactly scattered the talisman dust over Bristols results this season. We just need a couple of wins to rebuild confidence and momentum, and I think we will pull away from the pack.....and I think we are one of a few who have the potential to do that.

[TigerFeetSteve]

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status ... nHfMA&s=19

Nice interview with Wiggy, also interesting to spot Kini & Hosea in the training so hopefully they're not too far off

[mightymouse]

Dave Rennie now available.. did well with Glasgow

[baz1664]

Rennie is the pedigree of coach we need, let’s hope he has been released by Oz to step in at the tigers!!

[tigerburnie]

I'd sooner be looking at someone who is successful rather than people who have failed, we don't need other peoples cast offs.

[sam16111986]

I'd sooner be looking at someone who is successful rather than people who have failed, we don't need other peoples cast offs.

Three consecutive NZ under 20 world titles, two consecutive Super Rugby titles with the Chiefs, at Glasgow the team were regularly in knock out rounds of both domestic and European competition (just couldn't quite get over the line). It's really only as Australia head coach he had struggles, that was more consistency than anything else as he did have wins over NZ and South Africa, he just couldn't get them to perform at that level all the time (injuries didn't help).

[baz1664]

I'd sooner be looking at someone who is successful rather than people who have failed, we don't need other peoples cast offs.

It’s very rare a coach has a 100% success rate throughout their career, look at Stuart Lancaster, dreadful with England but outstanding with Leinster.

Someone like Rennie has excelled at the Chiefs and Glasgow. He inherited an Aussie team on the transition and I am not sure how EJ is going to galvanise that team into anything special.