Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

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GB72
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

wigworth wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:49 pm
GB72 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:46 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:41 pm

Where is this 7 figure sum coming from, compensation is exactly that paying what is remaining of their contract, not pay off their contract and we would like some extra as well please.
Actually that is not correct. Compensation is the negotiated sum paid to the club to agree to a release early from the contractual obligations. Unless the contract limits that to the amount due to be paid under the contract (unlikely) then the amount in question is whatever payment is negotiated between the parties. It would almost certainly not be limited to what is due under the contract (that would be what an employee could expect if an employer wanted them to leave early, or they get put pn gardening leave and paid the same). In this case, SB is contracted to us, they want to enqtinguish the contract and so we name our price and the negotiations begin. We have no obligation to release SB or anyone from a contract unless we are happy with the financial recompense. In this case, the RFU are pretty much over a barrell and so I would expect them to get their cheque book out and start adding zeros to that number.
A few people on twitter have intimated that there was a break clause for England in Borthwick's contract with Tigers.
That would make all of the difference but I would be surprised if the club agreed to a mid season break clause or indeed one in the last 6 months of the contract but it is more than possible and that would potentially limit the compensation. That said, it would also be poor form for the RFU to make public details of agreed break clause payment levels in the press. That, again, assumes that the breack clause has an agreed payment formula and is not using wishy washy terms like 'mutually agreeable compensation payment'.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:52 pm
GB72 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:46 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:41 pm

Where is this 7 figure sum coming from, compensation is exactly that paying what is remaining of their contract, not pay off their contract and we would like some extra as well please.
Actually that is not correct. Compensation is the negotiated sum paid to the club to agree to a release early from the contractual obligations. Unless the contract limits that to the amount due to be paid under the contract (unlikely) then the amount in question is whatever payment is negotiated between the parties. It would almost certainly not be limited to what is due under the contract (that would be what an employee could expect if an employer wanted them to leave early, or they get put pn gardening leave and paid the same). In this case, SB is contracted to us, they want to enqtinguish the contract and so we name our price and the negotiations begin. We have no obligation to release SB or anyone from a contract unless we are happy with the financial recompense. In this case, the RFU are pretty much over a barrell and so I would expect them to get their cheque book out and start adding zeros to that number.
Well thank you for the correction but anyone thinks for one minute the RFU will pay more than they absolutely have to they are in for a surprise. If Tigers play hardball they will wait till June and pay nothing.
Let’s not forget the fat sum Jones will take them for.
True but, equally, we are under no obligation just roll over and have our tummy tickled either. In the grand scheme of things, i would rather have a season with a full chaching team in place than £200k. I would be less convinced if there was a million pounds plus on the table and that is where the negotiations come in. Do we feel obligated enought to SB to take a bath on the deal or do we agree he can leave but it is going to cost the RFU to get him now. Not sure the RFu can wait until June. Can they send SB into a World Cup with a couple of practice matches and a couple of months to build a squad and train them, pretty much no, they need him now if he is going to take the team to the World Cup

The best analogy here is football. This is basically a transfer and the payment is not the value of the contract but the value of the player to the club who wants to sign them. They pay more in January as it messes up the plans of the club the player is leaving and the club also know that they buying club are desperate to get them in now and cannot wait for the contract to end in the summer when they get him on a free.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

Totally agree that the club needs to stand firm but they also do not want to be alienating Borthwick and whoever else may go.

As I’ve said previously the knowledge he has of the players should mean that starting in June with 2 months of camps before the first of 4 warm up games should be enough. After all he isn’t going to be reinventing the wheel, England aren’t going to suddenly start running everything from their own gain line, and like many of us he already knows who he will pick, it’s just his opinion is far more knowledgeable
GB72
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:17 pm Totally agree that the club needs to stand firm but they also do not want to be alienating Borthwick and whoever else may go.

As I’ve said previously the knowledge he has of the players should mean that starting in June with 2 months of camps before the first of 4 warm up games should be enough. After all he isn’t going to be reinventing the wheel, England aren’t going to suddenly start running everything from their own gain line, and like many of us he already knows who he will pick, it’s just his opinion is far more knowledgeable
I think that what we will see is a negotiation based on us not pushing the finances on the understanding that SB leaves now but the rest of the coaching staff stay until the end of the season (with an earlier departure by mutual consent if we find replacements). Sadly, with the talk of Wigglesworth joining the team at England as well, I suspect that this will not only tear up our current plans but also wreck a bit of succession planning that we may have in place.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

Apologies I did not proof read my post prior to posting it. A seven figure sum is what I consider to be in the right ball park for England to buy Borthwick out of his contract. Its all about perceived value both by the contract holder and the body that want to buy him out. I am minded that Tigers demanded a very large sum to release Castro from his contract early to go to Toulon. Toulon did not cough up all the sum and so Castro caughed up the difference to get out.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:24 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:17 pm Totally agree that the club needs to stand firm but they also do not want to be alienating Borthwick and whoever else may go.

As I’ve said previously the knowledge he has of the players should mean that starting in June with 2 months of camps before the first of 4 warm up games should be enough. After all he isn’t going to be reinventing the wheel, England aren’t going to suddenly start running everything from their own gain line, and like many of us he already knows who he will pick, it’s just his opinion is far more knowledgeable
I think that what we will see is a negotiation based on us not pushing the finances on the understanding that SB leaves now but the rest of the coaching staff stay until the end of the season (with an earlier departure by mutual consent if we find replacements). Sadly, with the talk of Wigglesworth joining the team at England as well, I suspect that this will not only tear up our current plans but also wreck a bit of succession planning that we may have in place.
I do agree with this, and is a workable middle ground in terms that Borthwick goes now to lay the ground work and is joined after May 20th by those he would like to join him.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:29 pm
GB72 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:24 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:17 pm Totally agree that the club needs to stand firm but they also do not want to be alienating Borthwick and whoever else may go.

As I’ve said previously the knowledge he has of the players should mean that starting in June with 2 months of camps before the first of 4 warm up games should be enough. After all he isn’t going to be reinventing the wheel, England aren’t going to suddenly start running everything from their own gain line, and like many of us he already knows who he will pick, it’s just his opinion is far more knowledgeable
I think that what we will see is a negotiation based on us not pushing the finances on the understanding that SB leaves now but the rest of the coaching staff stay until the end of the season (with an earlier departure by mutual consent if we find replacements). Sadly, with the talk of Wigglesworth joining the team at England as well, I suspect that this will not only tear up our current plans but also wreck a bit of succession planning that we may have in place.
I do agree with this, and is a workable middle ground in terms that Borthwick goes now to lay the ground work and is joined after May 20th by those he would like to join him.
Agree but the issue then is whether that is something SB can agree to. If he is going to make a success of this then he may want his full team around him as soon as possible and certainly for the 6 Nations. As such, he may push the RFU to offer the money to get all 3 at once and then you are looking back at the 7 figure compensation for the associated costs. This is all part of the negotiation process. What the RFU have done is damaged their position by removing EJ without the terms with us being sorted and they are just lucky that we have been compliant and some club owners would simply have told them to get lost.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

Tigers should tell England to get lost we owe them nothing
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

I don’t think we should be surprised but the attitude of The RFU seems to have been let’s hope we have a decent November maybe win 2 lose 2 close games we can then move on with Jones. 6 Nations win 3 games pressure off.

It appears that they were completely caught by surprise by the demolition job done by the Boks and thought what the chuff do we do know. They even allowed Jones to spend last week in France scouting training bases etc.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by TigerReggie »

This just feels like the worst news of it's true. The worst timing. Half way through a season. This could ruin this year. It will ruin our squad continuity over the next few seasons. All the young players that signed extensions based on our coaching team etc etc. This is a bit of a nightmare just a s we had got settled.

Who could Tigers bring in as a replacement??
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by sapajo »

Depends upon candidate availability and wage demands. That's why we must ring every last penny out of the RFU compensation payment as its crucial to us being able to recruit a suitable replacement
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

sapajo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:00 pm Depends upon candidate availability and wage demands. That's why we must ring every last penny out of the RFU compensation payment as its crucial to us being able to recruit a suitable replacement
I’m sure there will be no shortage of candidates but as you say it is about finding a suitable replacement.
There was a discussion a little while back about the relative lack of success that that Kiwi coaches have had in the premiership, so my preference would be a British coach.

Pivac
Diamond
Gustard
Worsley.
I think Wiggy is enjoying the craic in Munster to return.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by wigworth »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:10 pm
sapajo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:00 pm Depends upon candidate availability and wage demands. That's why we must ring every last penny out of the RFU compensation payment as its crucial to us being able to recruit a suitable replacement
I’m sure there will be no shortage of candidates but as you say it is about finding a suitable replacement.
There was a discussion a little while back about the relative lack of success that that Kiwi coaches have had in the premiership, so my preference would be a British coach.

Pivac
Diamond
Gustard
Worsley.
I think Wiggy is enjoying the craic in Munster to return.
The more I think about it with how unlikely we are to be able to get McFarland the more I do like the idea of Gustard if he can be had.
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by RunTigerRun »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:10 pm
sapajo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:00 pm Depends upon candidate availability and wage demands. That's why we must ring every last penny out of the RFU compensation payment as its crucial to us being able to recruit a suitable replacement
I’m sure there will be no shortage of candidates but as you say it is about finding a suitable replacement.
There was a discussion a little while back about the relative lack of success that that Kiwi coaches have had in the premiership, so my preference would be a British coach.

Pivac
Diamond
Gustard
Worsley.
I think Wiggy is enjoying the craic in Munster to return.
Pivac is a Kiwi.
Rugbygramps
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Re: Tigers post Borthwick - next Head Coach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

RunTigerRun wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:21 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:10 pm
sapajo wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:00 pm Depends upon candidate availability and wage demands. That's why we must ring every last penny out of the RFU compensation payment as its crucial to us being able to recruit a suitable replacement
I’m sure there will be no shortage of candidates but as you say it is about finding a suitable replacement.
There was a discussion a little while back about the relative lack of success that that Kiwi coaches have had in the premiership, so my preference would be a British coach.

Pivac
Diamond
Gustard
Worsley.
I think Wiggy is enjoying the craic in Munster to return.
Pivac is a Kiwi.
Thank you I honestly didn’t know that.
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