Borthwick for England

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fentiger
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by fentiger »

westwinds31 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:10 pm This is the closest to the truth in my opinion. We’re not a European powerhouse yet and we’ve won one Premiership title. If that constitutes a successful job and it directly leads to the England gig then my name’s Matt Hancock. I still say Borthwick has tasted the international stage already and it doesn’t fit with his day to day challenge of club rugby, neither would it appeal to his media profile.
I think there is a lot of how it is in that paragraph. Borthwick has experience of the international stage and in all probability knows whether he could stomach it or not. For our sakes I hope it's not :smt023
ay2oh
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by ay2oh »

Don’t want Borthwick to go but hopefully Tigers have contingency plans should it happen. If we manage to keep Aled and Kev we should be ok but if they all go would be a big blow.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by trendylfj »

Can see Borths and possibly Aled going but not Kev. He still lives in Oldham and I believe only stays in Leicester 2 nights a week - don't know where I read it but read it I did. I hope none of them go but I would think that ambition and challenge would rank fairly highly in SB's character and we all know he will go at some time but is after the WC the right time for him.
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Smudge
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Smudge »

If Borths has been reading the papers and social media with respect to Eddie, why on earth would he want to subject himself to that rubbish?
While Eddie bears the ultimate responsibility for the team, the failure this autumn has been down to the pack.
Who has been in charge of coaching the pack? Our own dear, not missed, Cockers.
I have been of the opinion, since the success last season that our aim this year is success in Europe. We are at a serious disadvantage to the French clubs and Irish Provinces spending but I feel sure that is where Borths wants to challenge himself.
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mol2
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by mol2 »

It, to an extent, seems strange that England should need a full time fitness coach.
They have the players for a few short spells, too little to make a substantial difference to fitness.
Possibly useful on tour or at a World Cup, in which case bring one in for that.

This was one of EJ’s failings, he didn’t think that the players were fit enough, and did intense training, only to return platers injured. Meaningful fitness and strength gains take time so this should be a liaison role with the club’s coaches who work with the player on both skills and fitness on a day to day basis.

Aled is a good fitness coach. However we should remember that we were once considered the fittest side in the league until a certain head coach/DOR decided the role was unnecessary. Aled showed it was necessary.
CrumblingTerrace
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

wigworth wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:02 pm
wigworth wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:56 pm

I was thinking about this earlier, has there ever been a NZ coach who has come to the Prem and been very successful? Not to dismiss anyone out of hand but stylistically Super Rugby and the Prem are very different and I not not sure coaching success in one would translate to the other.
Boyd, Matherson(spelling)
Boyd didn't quite cut the mustard for me, decent enough but didn't win the league and didn't have enough success and I don't want us to go down the route of flash backline again with subpar forward pack. Matson the Quins coach? They won the Prem before he got there so the jury is out so far.
It's a good point. NZ coaches haven't had quite the impact their players have in the Premiership.

Gatland is the anomaly... he had great success with Wasps.

Mauger obviously struggled with us (albeit during a very difficult time). Shelford was sacked by Sarries. Brewer was sacked by Sale.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by wigworth »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:28 am
wigworth wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:02 pm

Boyd, Matherson(spelling)
Boyd didn't quite cut the mustard for me, decent enough but didn't win the league and didn't have enough success and I don't want us to go down the route of flash backline again with subpar forward pack. Matson the Quins coach? They won the Prem before he got there so the jury is out so far.
It's a good point. NZ coaches haven't had quite the impact their players have in the Premiership.

Gatland is the anomaly... he had great success with Wasps.

Mauger obviously struggled with us (albeit during a very difficult time). Shelford was sacked by Sarries. Brewer was sacked by Sale.
I forgot about Gatland, but as you say he seems to be the exception that proves the rule.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by RagingBull »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:28 am
wigworth wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:02 pm

Boyd, Matherson(spelling)
Boyd didn't quite cut the mustard for me, decent enough but didn't win the league and didn't have enough success and I don't want us to go down the route of flash backline again with subpar forward pack. Matson the Quins coach? They won the Prem before he got there so the jury is out so far.
It's a good point. NZ coaches haven't had quite the impact their players have in the Premiership.

Gatland is the anomaly... he had great success with Wasps.

Mauger obviously struggled with us (albeit during a very difficult time). Shelford was sacked by Sarries. Brewer was sacked by Sale.
How many successful NZ head coaches have moved to the Prem I guess?

I think Boyd is the only one I can think of that won anything even then only once.
Blackadder was always a bridesmaid head coach at the most successful team.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by tigerburnie »

Smudge wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:43 am
While Eddie bears the ultimate responsibility for the team, the failure this autumn has been down to the pack.
Who has been in charge of coaching the pack? Our own dear, not missed, Cockers.
Do you really think Jones would just turn his back on the forwards, an ex Tigers hooker himself? I think you know a lot less about rugby coaching than you realise. Oh and I miss Cockers, his passion for the Tigers was second to none.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Rugbygramps »

tigerburnie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:18 am
Smudge wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:43 am
While Eddie bears the ultimate responsibility for the team, the failure this autumn has been down to the pack.
Who has been in charge of coaching the pack? Our own dear, not missed, Cockers.
Do you really think Jones would just turn his back on the forwards, an ex Tigers hooker himself? I think you know a lot less about rugby coaching than you realise. Oh and I miss Cockers, his passion for the Tigers was second to none.
Taking it away from the Marmite who is Cockers, the coaches can only work with the players they have. Jones picks the side and continues to pick players past their prime, not good enough or out of position
mol2
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by mol2 »

Given the salary cap I think the thought of Borthwick or any other coach turning any of the Premiership sides into European powerhouses for the foreseeable future, so probably not an argument for Borthwick staying.

As for Kiwi coaches in the Premiership, perhaps we could be wise to consider their success or lack of it in the context of which clubs they were at (budget) and whether they were successful coaches back home.
We, at Tigers, may have our view clouded by one former Tiger who was hardly flying when we signed him.
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Rugbygramps »

mol2 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:44 pm Given the salary cap I think the thought of Borthwick or any other coach turning any of the Premiership sides into European powerhouses for the foreseeable future, so probably not an argument for Borthwick staying.

As for Kiwi coaches in the Premiership, perhaps we could be wise to consider their success or lack of it in the context of which clubs they were at (budget) and whether they were successful coaches back home.
We, at Tigers, may have our view clouded by one former Tiger who was hardly flying when we signed him.
Has a non British coach ever won the premiership? No one springs to mind
Scott1
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Scott1 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 pm
mol2 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:44 pm Given the salary cap I think the thought of Borthwick or any other coach turning any of the Premiership sides into European powerhouses for the foreseeable future, so probably not an argument for Borthwick staying.

As for Kiwi coaches in the Premiership, perhaps we could be wise to consider their success or lack of it in the context of which clubs they were at (budget) and whether they were successful coaches back home.
We, at Tigers, may have our view clouded by one former Tiger who was hardly flying when we signed him.
Has a non British coach ever won the premiership? No one springs to mind
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

Mark McCall might consider himself British.

Howard & Dwyer won it with us, did Dr Venter win it?

It would also be interesting to know how much money is in the pro game in New Zealand & Australia.
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Cagey Tiger
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Re: Borthwick for England

Post by Cagey Tiger »

Philippe Saint Andre at Sale 2005-6 season.

Gatland at Wasps
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