Next England Head Coach (Pre World Cup)

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sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

Smudge wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:55 am If England DO get SB,(and it's not yet confirmed), why don't we use the massive compensation to bring in Robinson to Tigers?
This assumes we shall receive massive compensation and most of all if his contracted availability and if he wants to come here
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mol2
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by mol2 »

Folk may not have liked the way Murphy was ousted but the real issue was that he was appointed in the first place?
In coaching terms it was the coaching equivalent of making the office junior the MD.

Why do people seem to assume being a great player is an automatic qualification to be a great coach?

Internal appointments may well work when you are the best in the way Liverpool were in the Shankley/Paisley era but when you aren’t you need fresh ideas and I don’t think Tigers have, on the basis of one league title, internally trained a dynasty of top level coaches. .

We need an outsider to come in in the way Borthwick did to appoint his own team and move us on in the current financially constrained era.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations (should Borthwick be coach)

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
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GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Rugbygramps
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations (should Borthwick be coach)

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
Probably not far away maybe Arundell over Watson if fit
sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

mol2 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:04 pm Folk may not have liked the way Murphy was ousted but the real issue was that he was appointed in the first place?
In coaching terms it was the coaching equivalent of making the office junior the MD.

Why do people seem to assume being a great player is an automatic qualification to be a great coach?

Internal appointments may well work when you are the best in the way Liverpool were in the Shankley/Paisley era but when you aren’t you need fresh ideas and I don’t think Tigers have, on the basis of one league title, internally trained a dynasty of top level coaches. .

We need an outsider to come in in the way Borthwick did to appoint his own team and move us on in the current financially constrained era.
Totally agree it simply beggers belief. Another example was appointing Jonno a legendary Ex Tigers and Ex Lions player as England manager when he had never coached anyone before.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
TBF I think they've "over egged" Tigers players in there just because he's a Tigers coach
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
Totally agree. Also need to look at the payments from England. May be wrong but sure I read that they are pooled and split and so us contributing 8 players gets us the same money as Saints losing one player.
Rugbygramps
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:34 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
TBF I think they've "over egged" Tigers players in there just because he's a Tigers coach
Possibly yes but the only ones you would really question are Watson and Chessum and are the alternatives that much better.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:34 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm Telegraph has predicted an England team for the 6 Nations

Freddie Steward; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Dan Kelly, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Owen Farrell, Jack van Poortvliet; Ellis Genge (captain), Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum, Ted Hill, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Val Rapava-Ruskin, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Marcus Smith, Ollie Lawrence
If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
TBF I think they've "over egged" Tigers players in there just because he's a Tigers coach
Not sure they have in this instance and could even see Porter and Martin being in the mix due to versatility. Not sure any of the backs selections are unreasonable, though Watson may have some competition as well as Kelly but would certianly see both in the squad if not hte match day team. Chessum another one who could be squad but not necesarily team yet but it is not that unrealistic. Losing Monoya and Wiese as well at some stages would leave any team pretty thread bare
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Scott1 »

I'd love to see a MF of Farrell,Kelly,Slade!
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm

If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
If you are going to continue playing leage matches during internationals then there has to be some parity. The alternative would be that clubs are compensated per player, that is increased and those payments can be used outside of the salary cap to recruit cover. Even then, the cover would not be as good (or they would be involved in the internationals) and it would be difficult to budget as the income would depend on selection. Then I can see an option wherby a set number of players are picked at the start of the season and the clubs compensated straight away for a full season of England involvement.

I still like the idea of limiting selection in that, outside of a world cup year, you can be picked for the autumn internationals or the 6 nations but not both and only 50% of the squad for a summer tour can have played in either. That would widen the base of players with international experience, give the clubs more time with their internationals and also allow more rest for player welfare.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:36 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm

If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
Totally agree. Also need to look at the payments from England. May be wrong but sure I read that they are pooled and split and so us contributing 8 players gets us the same money as Saints losing one player.
I’m sure you are correct re the club payments.
Taking players from one club, it happens has happened to Tigers before and Saracens I’m not sure how you are going to stop it. In the side mentioned Steward , Kelly. JVP , Chessum all high class players who were probably going to make it anyway, but there rise to National Selection has been increased by Borthwick.
Very much a Catch 22 you employ the best coach who develops the players so they become internationals and you loose them to test matches.
Is the answer don’t employ the best coaches.
IMO the problem is the rugby calendar and until league games stop clashing with internationals this is going to happen.
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