Next England Head Coach (Pre World Cup)

[Old Hob]

Interesting take by Goode on Ashton's comments about "brutal" EJ and why Ashton didn't want to play for England again under EJ.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/b ... 4f904ed97d

[TigerFeetSteve]

So what do people think are the playing consequences of EJ losing his job for us at Tigers.

I get concerns about players but I think in terms of players it may strengthen us in the 6N

1. I think a new coach is unlikely to take Youngs to the 6N, he may not have the door closed on him but think the new coach may focus on JVP, Quirke & Mitchell and know he can call Youngs in.

2. With the likes of Lawrence being talked up but seemingly not liked by Jones, Porter may be the one who is let go. New coach and I think 50:50 he's in the 6N (obviously form from now depending etc)

3. Martin may well be in and around the setup along with Chessum, that said there's so many back row and lock options (e.g. Hill) who are also in the mix.

4. Biggest one is I think a new coach may return Dan Cole to the fold. Now we'll have to see but it wouldn't be completely a shock if Heyes (dunno how long Stuart is out for) went too. That could leave us struggling at Tighthead

[RunTigerRun]

So what do people think are the playing consequences of EJ losing his job for us at Tigers.

I get concerns about players but I think in terms of players it may strengthen us in the 6N

1. I think a new coach is unlikely to take Youngs to the 6N, he may not have the door closed on him but think the new coach may focus on JVP, Quirke & Mitchell and know he can call Youngs in.

2. With the likes of Lawrence being talked up but seemingly not liked by Jones, Porter may be the one who is let go. New coach and I think 50:50 he's in the 6N (obviously form from now depending etc)

3. Martin may well be in and around the setup along with Chessum, that said there's so many back row and lock options (e.g. Hill) who are also in the mix.

4. Biggest one is I think a new coach may return Dan Cole to the fold. Now we'll have to see but it wouldn't be completely a shock if Heyes (dunno how long Stuart is out for) went too. That could leave us struggling at Tighthead

Depends who the next coach is IMO. Gatland, O'Shea and Cockers (the three 'temporary' rumours) could see things differently.

I'd imagine out of the Tigers players (injuries aside...) Steward, Watson, JvP, Chessum will be nailed on to be included in the 6N. Then Porter, Youngs, Cole, Heyes are highly/likely. With Martin, Kelly, Potter (form permitting) as bolters.

Depends on injuries in the current squad too with the likes of Lawes, Sinckler, Stuart, Arundell likely out for the 6N; and then the poor form of the likes of May, Tuilagi, Farrell, Vunipola x2, Hill, Cowan-Dickie.

It's tricky as if Jones does go, the next HC will be stuck between picking on form and potentially having a 'new' squad to get up to WC speed quickly, or go with the 'same' squad and see if it really was the coaching or the players causing a lack of form... Who'd want the job?!?

[GB72]

So what do people think are the playing consequences of EJ losing his job for us at Tigers.

I get concerns about players but I think in terms of players it may strengthen us in the 6N

1. I think a new coach is unlikely to take Youngs to the 6N, he may not have the door closed on him but think the new coach may focus on JVP, Quirke & Mitchell and know he can call Youngs in.

2. With the likes of Lawrence being talked up but seemingly not liked by Jones, Porter may be the one who is let go. New coach and I think 50:50 he's in the 6N (obviously form from now depending etc)

3. Martin may well be in and around the setup along with Chessum, that said there's so many back row and lock options (e.g. Hill) who are also in the mix.

4. Biggest one is I think a new coach may return Dan Cole to the fold. Now we'll have to see but it wouldn't be completely a shock if Heyes (dunno how long Stuart is out for) went too. That could leave us struggling at Tighthead

Depends who the next coach is IMO. Gatland, O'Shea and Cockers (the three 'temporary' rumours) could see things differently.

I'd imagine out of the Tigers players (injuries aside...) Steward, Watson, JvP, Chessum will be nailed on to be included in the 6N. Then Porter, Youngs, Cole, Heyes are highly/likely. With Martin, Kelly, Potter (form permitting) as bolters.

Depends on injuries in the current squad too with the likes of Lawes, Sinckler, Stuart, Arundell likely out for the 6N; and then the poor form of the likes of May, Tuilagi, Farrell, Vunipola x2, Hill, Cowan-Dickie.

It's tricky as if Jones does go, the next HC will be stuck between picking on form and potentially having a 'new' squad to get up to WC speed quickly, or go with the 'same' squad and see if it really was the coaching or the players causing a lack of form... Who'd want the job?!?

It is a tough one but it is a situation of Jone's making. By sticking to certain players and not giving a chance to any new blood unless he has had to, he has been left with a squad of players with a number now past their best but with nobody to step in who has had a decent run in the team. Basically either Jones or a new coach have the same issue, either stick with the current underperforming players and hope for improvement (or that there is a plan that Jones keeps talking about) or draft in a whole new set of players and try and build a team over the 6 nations and a couple of warm up matches.

Personally I think that Jones has ignored too much emerging talent to stay. You could argue his case if he was sticking to tried and tested players and they were winning but he is sticking to tried and tested players who are playing badly.

[wigworth]

So what do people think are the playing consequences of EJ losing his job for us at Tigers.

I get concerns about players but I think in terms of players it may strengthen us in the 6N

1. I think a new coach is unlikely to take Youngs to the 6N, he may not have the door closed on him but think the new coach may focus on JVP, Quirke & Mitchell and know he can call Youngs in.

2. With the likes of Lawrence being talked up but seemingly not liked by Jones, Porter may be the one who is let go. New coach and I think 50:50 he's in the 6N (obviously form from now depending etc)

3. Martin may well be in and around the setup along with Chessum, that said there's so many back row and lock options (e.g. Hill) who are also in the mix.

4. Biggest one is I think a new coach may return Dan Cole to the fold. Now we'll have to see but it wouldn't be completely a shock if Heyes (dunno how long Stuart is out for) went too. That could leave us struggling at Tighthead

Depends who the next coach is IMO. Gatland, O'Shea and Cockers (the three 'temporary' rumours) could see things differently.

I'd imagine out of the Tigers players (injuries aside...) Steward, Watson, JvP, Chessum will be nailed on to be included in the 6N. Then Porter, Youngs, Cole, Heyes are highly/likely. With Martin, Kelly, Potter (form permitting) as bolters.

Depends on injuries in the current squad too with the likes of Lawes, Sinckler, Stuart, Arundell likely out for the 6N; and then the poor form of the likes of May, Tuilagi, Farrell, Vunipola x2, Hill, Cowan-Dickie.

It's tricky as if Jones does go, the next HC will be stuck between picking on form and potentially having a 'new' squad to get up to WC speed quickly, or go with the 'same' squad and see if it really was the coaching or the players causing a lack of form... Who'd want the job?!?

It is a tough one but it is a situation of Jone's making. By sticking to certain players and not giving a chance to any new blood unless he has had to, he has been left with a squad of players with a number now past their best but with nobody to step in who has had a decent run in the team. Basically either Jones or a new coach have the same issue, either stick with the current underperforming players and hope for improvement (or that there is a plan that Jones keeps talking about) or draft in a whole new set of players and try and build a team over the 6 nations and a couple of warm up matches.

Personally I think that Jones has ignored too much emerging talent to stay. You could argue his case if he was sticking to tried and tested players and they were winning but he is sticking to tried and tested players who are playing badly.

Who is this missing talent? Aside from the young wingers I don't really know who else he has really missed giving a shot.

[Rugbygramps]

Wigworth it’s a good question. There are some that may have got more time if not for injuries Quirke Arundell Ford Kelly, even Chessum, then some more established players that could have made a difference. Upfront Schonert and Rapava Ruskin have both been performing strongly, Earl, Dombrandt, a way has to be found to get Mercer in the squad asap. Mitchell, Hassell Collins Loader.
All these players should get more of a look in but I also think it is a very similar scenario to English test cricket prior to Bazball. There haven’t been that many new players but there has been a new mentality of playing to win, being confident, not being afraid to make mistakes and having fun on the paddock

[GB72]

Wigworth it’s a good question. There are some that may have got more time if not for injuries Quirke Arundell Ford Kelly, even Chessum, then some more established players that could have made a difference. Upfront Schonert and Rapava Ruskin have both been performing strongly, Earl, Dombrandt, a way has to be found to get Mercer in the squad asap. Mitchell, Hassell Collins Loader.
All these players should get more of a look in but I also think it is a very similar scenario to English test cricket prior to Bazball. There haven’t been that many new players but there has been a new mentality of playing to win, being confident, not being afraid to make mistakes and having fun on the paddock

It is a good question and perhaps I could have worded my original point better. To reverse it slightly, I guess I look at out of form players such as mentioned earlier (May, Nowell, Vunipola x2, Tuillagi etc) who are still on the pitch but few have been given any form or run in the squad to step in to replace when that lack of form shows (we all know the 'everything will be alright when Manyu is fit' line). The wings are the prime example with some great tallent in the premiership and we have May and Nowell. We have only had 2 scrum halves in the squad as well. At least one more needs some on pitch experience otherwise we are an injury away from a real problem. We have years of picking Daily with no form to back it up, now he is actually playing well in the correct position, he cannot get in the squad. If nothing else he has the versitility to be an assett on the bench. I just look at some of the rugby being played week in, week out then wonder how none of that translates to a performance at international level.

[Rugbygramps]

Dailey is an interesting question. Is the reason he is playing so well because he isn’t playing for England, if he went back into the England squad under Jones would he revert to his previous form. Maybe under a new coach he would maintain his club form.

[wigworth]

Wigworth it’s a good question. There are some that may have got more time if not for injuries Quirke Arundell Ford Kelly, even Chessum, then some more established players that could have made a difference. Upfront Schonert and Rapava Ruskin have both been performing strongly, Earl, Dombrandt, a way has to be found to get Mercer in the squad asap. Mitchell, Hassell Collins Loader.
All these players should get more of a look in but I also think it is a very similar scenario to English test cricket prior to Bazball. There haven’t been that many new players but there has been a new mentality of playing to win, being confident, not being afraid to make mistakes and having fun on the paddock

Without making excuses for him I do think some of those you mentioned would have played if they were not injured. Rapava Ruskin should get a go in the Six Nations but I don't think this form until this season has warranted consideration. Mercer is a good point but Eddie's selections at no.8 clearly show that he likes a big bodied no.8 ala Billy, Hughes or Dombrandt so I doubt we see him.

I also see why he goes back to these same players over and over especially the Sarries lot, as nobody in the league has been as consistently good as Sarries have been over the past few years and their players do tend to shine in the Prem. Nobody in the Prem destroys Mako or the Sarries scrum like the Boks did against him and England.

Ever since Borthwick left England the forwards have regressed horribly and for me this is the area that needs addressing most, more so than the head coach. Proudfoot and Cockers just don't seem to be getting it done and the scrum against SA seems to be getting worse every time we face them.

[Scott1]

All excellent points Mark and GB72. Although you could argue EJ has his favourites and although I havnt got the stats at hand I'm sure I read that he has given an incredible amount of debuts as well as trying X amount of centre combinations. I don't think it can be levelled at him that he hasn't given players chances

[Scott1]

Wigworth it’s a good question. There are some that may have got more time if not for injuries Quirke Arundell Ford Kelly, even Chessum, then some more established players that could have made a difference. Upfront Schonert and Rapava Ruskin have both been performing strongly, Earl, Dombrandt, a way has to be found to get Mercer in the squad asap. Mitchell, Hassell Collins Loader.
All these players should get more of a look in but I also think it is a very similar scenario to English test cricket prior to Bazball. There haven’t been that many new players but there has been a new mentality of playing to win, being confident, not being afraid to make mistakes and having fun on the paddock

Without making excuses for him I do think some of those you mentioned would have played if they were not injured. Rapava Ruskin should get a go in the Six Nations but I don't think this form until this season has warranted consideration. Mercer is a good point but Eddie's selections at no.8 clearly show that he likes a big bodied no.8 ala Billy, Hughes or Dombrandt so I doubt we see him.

I also see why he goes back to these same players over and over especially the Sarries lot, as nobody in the league has been as consistently good as Sarries have been over the past few years and their players do tend to shine in the Prem. Nobody in the Prem destroys Mako or the Sarries scrum like the Boks did against him and England.

Ever since Borthwick left England the forwards have regressed horribly and for me this is the area that needs addressing most, more so than the head coach. Proudfoot and Cockers just don't seem to be getting it done and the scrum against SA seems to be getting worse every time we face them.

Don't forget the Sarries players were all brought back in cold from The Championship without any real rugby. You can't tell me that was good for morale when you had form players being ignored just because it was a Sarries player!

[GB72]

All excellent points Mark and GB72. Although you could argue EJ has his favourites and although I havnt got the stats at hand I'm sure I read that he has given an incredible amount of debuts as well as trying X amount of centre combinations. I don't think it can levelled at him that he hasn't given players chances

Again, I could be wrong (I often am) but many of the chances seemed pretty short to me. Not many players are going to put on an England shirt and look like they belong there straight away like Steward did. They need an extended run in the team, especially when the world cup was still a couple of years away, to see how they go.

As to the previous point, very much appreciate what was said about Jones having a way of playing and preferring a big 8 etc but that is where I have an issue. As coach of the national team, I feel that you need to look at what players we have available and on form and start to develop a way of playing that suits them. We have pace and dynamic players all across the pitch in the league with even some great running, ball carrying front rows, we have pace to burn available on the wings, surely a coach should be developing a team to play to the strength of the players that we have rather than lamenting the lack of players of the type that he wants.

[Scott1]

All excellent points Mark and GB72. Although you could argue EJ has his favourites and although I havnt got the stats at hand I'm sure I read that he has given an incredible amount of debuts as well as trying X amount of centre combinations. I don't think it can levelled at him that he hasn't given players chances

Again, I could be wrong (I often am) but many of the chances seemed pretty short to me. Not many players are going to put on an England shirt and look like they belong there straight away like Steward did. They need an extended run in the team, especially when the world cup was still a couple of years away, to see how they go.

As to the previous point, very much appreciate what was said about Jones having a way of playing and preferring a big 8 etc but that is where I have an issue. As coach of the national team, I feel that you need to look at what players we have available and on form and start to develop a way of playing that suits them. We have pace and dynamic players all across the pitch in the league with even some great running, ball carrying front rows, we have pace to burn available on the wings, surely a coach should be developing a team to play to the strength of the players that we have rather than lamenting the lack of players of the type that he wants.

Yes,perhaps their chances were too short. But Freddie looked like an international from minute 1. Maybe those players couldn't step up. Be interesting to see where we could find the stats for his players used. Any ideas?

[Rugbygramps]

A good question would be that without injuries what would be your starting team given current form, or form before injury.

I would suggest, probably wide of the mark :

Genge
LCD
Cole
Itoje
Chessum
Lawes
Earl
Dombrant (Mercer if we could)
Mitchell
Farrell
OHC
Kelly
Slade
Arundell
Steward

Not that many brand new players.

[GB72]

All excellent points Mark and GB72. Although you could argue EJ has his favourites and although I havnt got the stats at hand I'm sure I read that he has given an incredible amount of debuts as well as trying X amount of centre combinations. I don't think it can levelled at him that he hasn't given players chances

Again, I could be wrong (I often am) but many of the chances seemed pretty short to me. Not many players are going to put on an England shirt and look like they belong there straight away like Steward did. They need an extended run in the team, especially when the world cup was still a couple of years away, to see how they go.

As to the previous point, very much appreciate what was said about Jones having a way of playing and preferring a big 8 etc but that is where I have an issue. As coach of the national team, I feel that you need to look at what players we have available and on form and start to develop a way of playing that suits them. We have pace and dynamic players all across the pitch in the league with even some great running, ball carrying front rows, we have pace to burn available on the wings, surely a coach should be developing a team to play to the strength of the players that we have rather than lamenting the lack of players of the type that he wants.

Yes,perhaps their chances were too short. But Freddie looked like an international from minute 1. Maybe those players couldn't step up. Be interesting to see where we could find the stats for his players used. Any ideas?

As one example (and, again, remember the proviso that I am often wrong) but i seem to recall that Radwan had a great start to his England career then was forgotten about soon after. Looking at the backs for the Autumn internationals, even before the first match, you could argue that Farrell (if he played at fly half) and Steward were the only 2 picked on any real form and merit. Scrum half is debateable as I am not sure that any of the names mentioned are head and shoulders above the others.