Next England Head Coach (Pre World Cup)

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sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:26 pm

If we sign OHC then that would be over half of our first 15 off on international duty. Not ideal with the nearest to that being Sarries losing 4
Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
I am talking selfishly as a long time season ticket holder who gets to see our best players on increasingly fewer opportunities. The question is not who are the best players as that is subjective but how fair and reasonable is it to take the Lions share of the players from just one club? I could not give a fig if England Rugby matches were played outside domestic club rugby windows like the football model but as it stands it clearly penalises the premiership aspirations of said club and for developing top players.
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Rugbygramps
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:48 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm

Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
If you are going to continue playing leage matches during internationals then there has to be some parity. The alternative would be that clubs are compensated per player, that is increased and those payments can be used outside of the salary cap to recruit cover. Even then, the cover would not be as good (or they would be involved in the internationals) and it would be difficult to budget as the income would depend on selection. Then I can see an option wherby a set number of players are picked at the start of the season and the clubs compensated straight away for a full season of England involvement.

I still like the idea of limiting selection in that, outside of a world cup year, you can be picked for the autumn internationals or the 6 nations but not both and only 50% of the squad for a summer tour can have played in either. That would widen the base of players with international experience, give the clubs more time with their internationals and also allow more rest for player welfare.
I do like the 50% idea. I also think the should consider playing the 6 nations during the Summer and the only having 3 November internationals one of which should be an emerging side such as Georgia
sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

Clubs are paid £80k compensation per released England player with no total limit per season as this is specified in the salary cap rules.
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Rugbygramps
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:57 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:32 pm

Thats why the premiership clubs must sit down with England and redraw their player release agreements its become a farce that England can take so many players from one club and more than one player from the same club in the same position on the field during the same match. :smt013
So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
I am talking selfishly as a long time season ticket holder who gets to see our best players on increasingly fewer opportunities. The question is not who are the best players as that is subjective but how fair and reasonable is it to take the Lions share of the players from just one club? I could not give a fig if England Rugby matches were played outside domestic club rugby windows like the football model but as it stands it clearly penalises the premiership aspirations of said club and for developing top players.
I do take your point and that view is very valid. I take a slightly wider view and would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country. Again agree about Internationals being played outside the club window too see my suggestion re a summer 6 nations.

It’s amazing that with some pre planning and everyone working together the football premiership has been put on hold for 6 weeks.
GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:03 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:57 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm

So are you suggesting that an England coach can’t pick his best players because a number of them play for the same club.
I am talking selfishly as a long time season ticket holder who gets to see our best players on increasingly fewer opportunities. The question is not who are the best players as that is subjective but how fair and reasonable is it to take the Lions share of the players from just one club? I could not give a fig if England Rugby matches were played outside domestic club rugby windows like the football model but as it stands it clearly penalises the premiership aspirations of said club and for developing top players.
I do take your point and that view is very valid. I take a slightly wider view and would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country. Again agree about Internationals being played outside the club window too see my suggestion re a summer 6 nations.

It’s amazing that with some pre planning and everyone working together the football premiership has been put on hold for 6 weeks.
Football has the advantage that, for a period at least, players can handle a game every 3-4 days and so cram in any missed matches. Not sure that players bodies could handle that in our sport. Plus, footballers get an actual end of the season. Only rugby seems to think it a good idea to flog the players all season then send them off on an extended tour in the Southern hemisphere 48 hours after the last match of the season (whilst also cramming in a quick match before that to line the RFU coffers).
sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

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I to would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country but imagine the extreme scenario where 7 or more of the England starting 15 are from the same club. Whilst it may reward the players it penalises that club and disincentives player development. Hence why some teams are choosing not to sign international class players so this issue needs to be revisited and even Borthwick has raised concerns over it.
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GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:21 pm I to would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country but imagine the extreme scenario where 7 or more of the England starting 15 are from the same club. Whilst it may reward the players it penalises that club and disincentives player development. Hence why some teams are choosing not to sign international class players so this issue needs to be revisited and even Borthwick has raised concerns over it.
I do think that this is coming to a head. I think that, with the financial constraints, clubs are to going to be less willing to sign full internationals or will at least not be offering those big contracts and that could trigger some change. I think, over recent times, some clubs have been lucky in that their international talent has not been recognised by EJ and it has been left to some clubs to bear the brunt of the load. That said, it has been like that for a long time. I am sure that I remember the push to pick up points early in the season as the other teams would catch up during the 6 nations period.

We also have had the introductions, quite correctly, of rest periods that has compounded the issue. Also I seem to feel that the Autumn Internationals have become a bigger thing over the years and so we have 2 significant periods without players rather than one. Plus, all of the teams want to play SA, NZ and Aus in that period to get the crowds in with Argentina also now being more of a draw. That means that they too have a full schedule of matches in November and so we lose those players as well.
Rugbygramps
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:21 pm I to would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country but imagine the extreme scenario where 7 or more of the England starting 15 are from the same club. Whilst it may reward the players it penalises that club and disincentives player development. Hence why some teams are choosing not to sign international class players so this issue needs to be revisited and even Borthwick has raised concerns over it.
I suspect the converse argument to that is that if the players are of sufficient quality it could actually be an advantage to have your team drawn from 3 or 4 clubs where partnerships and players understanding already exists.
Whatever the system is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.
sapajo
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by sapajo »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:29 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:21 pm I to would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country but imagine the extreme scenario where 7 or more of the England starting 15 are from the same club. Whilst it may reward the players it penalises that club and disincentives player development. Hence why some teams are choosing not to sign international class players so this issue needs to be revisited and even Borthwick has raised concerns over it.
I suspect the converse argument to that is that if the players are of sufficient quality it could actually be an advantage to have your team drawn from 3 or 4 clubs where partnerships and players understanding already exists.
Whatever the system is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.
Yep from a purely England perspective it could actually be an advantage to have your team drawn from 3 or 4 clubs where partnerships and players understanding already exists. From a clubs perspective its a nightmare. That said I do agree that the existing system is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.
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GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:35 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:29 pm
sapajo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:21 pm I to would like to see the best players rewarded by being picked for their country but imagine the extreme scenario where 7 or more of the England starting 15 are from the same club. Whilst it may reward the players it penalises that club and disincentives player development. Hence why some teams are choosing not to sign international class players so this issue needs to be revisited and even Borthwick has raised concerns over it.
I suspect the converse argument to that is that if the players are of sufficient quality it could actually be an advantage to have your team drawn from 3 or 4 clubs where partnerships and players understanding already exists.
Whatever the system is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.
Yep from a purely England perspective it could actually be an advantage to have your team drawn from 3 or 4 clubs where partnerships and players understanding already exists. From a clubs perspective its a nightmare. That said I do agree that the existing system is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.
I just look at the first day of the season. In football and other sports it is a massive promotion of being able to see the best players challenge themselves and the best teams playing each other. The excitement is ramped up the nearer it gets with debate about how new signings will perform and who has the edge this year.

The rugby season build up is almost exclusively who teams may be able to get out on the pitch and how many weeks into the season will it be before we can put out a full first team or even see our new signings play. That is simply no way to run and promote a professional sport. If nothing else, all clubs should have their full teams available for the first month of the season so as it can be properly promoted and people can see the players they pay to see. People wonder why rugby does not grow when potential new fans can see England one week then not follow those players on to watch them in club matches the week after. When half the season is played with the B team it is hardly surprising that people are not moving from international rugby to club rugby.
TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

This goes to the eternal debate...

Less internationals or less domestic games in a season.
Let's face it they're not going to reduce internationals, so lets review how many weeks we can play matches.

52 weeks total

The RFU want a 10 week gap post summer internationals

42 weeks left

3 weeks AI's plus 1 week training camp

38 weeks left

7 weeks (inc byes) 6N plus 1 week training camp

30 weeks left

4 weeks summer internationals

26 weeks left

European competitions

4 group games L16, QF, SF, F

18 weeks left

Then you have the fact the league want the money spinning playoffs (though need for them is removed if you avoid clashes with internationals.

So 16 weeks left.

To run a 10 team league you need 18 rounds... I can see why the they may want a 10 team league. It massively reduces player absence
Ok you'll need rests above those etc but get to a 10 team league and you're nearly able to play the best players in the majority of league games.

The issue is does that lose the club income from less games.

However I'd change up the PRC and make it a comptition with more games.

So play it during AI's & 6N, gives you 12 weeks of competition. Could have 8 weeks of group games and 4 knockouts. Internationals are away but it's a main weekend competition for clubs in the international periods.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

for a start get rid of the 6N rest weeks they are not needed
GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

Mad Idea and even I am not sure that it would work but play the 6 Nations in August/September when the rugby championship is on, run that straight into a version of the Autumn internationals and start the club season in December throught to May/June. Send a Touring side out to the Southern Hemisphere in late July, You then have a pre season block of internationals then a proper club season. OK, sound stupid the more I think about it.
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:53 pm Mad Idea and even I am not sure that it would work but play the 6 Nations in August/September when the rugby championship is on, run that straight into a version of the Autumn internationals and start the club season in December throught to May/June. Send a Touring side out to the Southern Hemisphere in late July, You then have a pre season block of internationals then a proper club season. OK, sound stupid the more I think about it.
Not at all it’s along similar lines to what I was thinking. 6 nations during the summer then Autumn internationals if necessary rotate between northern and Southern Hemisphere countries hosting then into your club season.
It’s that elusive holy grail though isn’t it a world rugby calendar
GB72
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Re: Next England Head Coach (Pre &/or Post World Cup)

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:10 pm
GB72 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:53 pm Mad Idea and even I am not sure that it would work but play the 6 Nations in August/September when the rugby championship is on, run that straight into a version of the Autumn internationals and start the club season in December throught to May/June. Send a Touring side out to the Southern Hemisphere in late July, You then have a pre season block of internationals then a proper club season. OK, sound stupid the more I think about it.
Not at all it’s along similar lines to what I was thinking. 6 nations during the summer then Autumn internationals if necessary rotate between northern and Southern Hemisphere countries hosting then into your club season.
It’s that elusive holy grail though isn’t it a world rugby calendar
Only trouble with that is that it means that you lose 3-4 internationals by not having the Autumn Internationals and the Summer Tour and that would not fly with the RFU. Saw today that 85% of their revenue comes from England matches and so to lose 3 out of 8 would be a 30% revenue cut. Similarly, the Southern Hemisphere teams are not going to come over here with a full squad to help us raise money every year if we do not reciprocate in the Summer.

Another mad, off the wall idea, remove England player match fees. Either pay them direct to the clubs to help with finances and to recruit cover or do not pay them at all to remove the need for so many international matches. Would be interesting to see how many play for the pride of playing for England and how many are looking for the 150 grand plus in wages. Still not sure why the money goes to the players anyway as they are employed to play a season of rugby whether that be at the clubs or on release to England. They are not playing more matches, just for a different team. Would have an exception for playing summer internationals as they are out of season.
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