Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
tigerburnie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8317
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:46 pm
Location: Scotland

Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by tigerburnie »

"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by GB72 »

I do not know the answer and that is why I fear for the sport as a whole. Club funding needs more matches and smaller squads, player welfare needs less matches and larger squads. I cannot find the middle ground that will allow the support to continue in the professional era (well I can, that would be semi professional teams in a smaller league with international players centrally contracted or a franchise system with a small number of teams playing in a Europe wide league with lower wages and larger squads) but neither of those will appeal nor are they the game as we now it now.
WirralExile
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Houghton-on-the-Hill (ex-Wirral)

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by WirralExile »

Steve Thompson was on BBC Breakfast this morning with some thought provoking stats around concussion and MND and in his case dementia. There is a documentary on BBC" this evening at 9:00pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63131221

The protocols in place now are far better than when Steve and his team mates were training & playing in the late 1990s and early 2000s but still a concern.
Wirral Exile
Same birthplace as Oz, but not quite as lippy!
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7246
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by Rugbygramps »

WirralExile wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:39 pm Steve Thompson was on BBC Breakfast this morning with some thought provoking stats around concussion and MND and in his case dementia. There is a documentary on BBC" this evening at 9:00pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63131221

The protocols in place now are far better than when Steve and his team mates were training & playing in the late 1990s and early 2000s but still a concern.
It is an excellent point about the protocols, unfortunately they kick in after the concussion has occurred. Also it isn’t just the concussion, take Reffell hit on Biggar in the Saints game, legal hit no where near the head, but the whiplash and impact through his body must have been huge.
Also the case of MVS where Tigers had to let him go, due to insurance and protocols over here and yet 6 months later he is turning out for the Bulls in South Africa
ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4019
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by ourla »

The evidence I am sure will keep coming.

Intrinsically I am against banning stuff. But you shouldn't shy away from it either.

Boxing, football, rugby, NFL, etc. are all sports that have to figure out how best they can mitigate against it.
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

ourla wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:08 pm The evidence I am sure will keep coming.

Intrinsically I am against banning stuff. But you shouldn't shy away from it either.

Boxing, football, rugby, NFL, etc. are all sports that have to figure out how best they can mitigate against it.
The NFL is currently going through a concussion scandal at the moment.

A Quarterback go a big hit one week, supposedly concussed, but it got listed as an ankle issue, then he played the following week (some people called it out prior to playing) he got concussed again and was hospitalised on life support, now he's been told he'll have to retire.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4581
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by mol2 »

Dementia and Parkinsons have a known association (likely causal) with head injuries.

MND is less clear - the numbers in this study are still small and it's a relatively uncommon compared to dementia and Parkinsons. What is already known is that recreational sport is associated with slightly increased rates of MND (not necessarily contact sports) so there is no reason that elite/pro rugby players should be exempt from that risk and indeed should be expected.
jgriffin
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8074
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:49 pm
Location: On the edge of oblivion

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by jgriffin »

mol2 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:36 pm Dementia and Parkinsons have a known association (likely causal) with head injuries.

MND is less clear - the numbers in this study are still small and it's a relatively uncommon compared to dementia and Parkinsons. What is already known is that recreational sport is associated with slightly increased rates of MND (not necessarily contact sports) so there is no reason that elite/pro rugby players should be exempt from that risk and indeed should be expected.
It's even more complicated than that as some disorders can have a genetic component (e.g. a susceptibility to acquire the disorder, well known in schizophrenia), this could combine with environmental factors (e.g. chemical exposure, something that did for my brother Brian), including impact effects.
The scientific problem is sorting out causality; the medical problem is preventing it happening; the legal problem is dealing with causality and liability.
Currently there is a hypothesis that something to do with impacts affects the nervous system and may make MND/dementia more likely. As a cast iron theory, it doesn't exist, but precautionary measures have to be taken, as well as (expensive) studies of brain changes throughout a players career.
The second problem is if precautionary measure are taken, you can't measure their effect for years to come, and you cannot control for other factors, new or ones around in the first place.
A nightmare. :smt012
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Soggypitch
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2288
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:18 pm
Location: Market Harborough

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by Soggypitch »

It is a nightmare.

The problem is if all risk is taken out of sport and recreation, it would be a very boring life! I think it's a question of knowing the possible risks of playing a particular sport/pastime, and doing your own risk assessment, then deciding whether to participate or not. Most rugby players I strongly suspect would continue to play.

Personally i decided a long time ago that mountaineering was far too risky for me!! :smt002
Soggypitch
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7246
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by Rugbygramps »

Just started watching the Steve Thompson programme, Head on Rugby Dementia and me. The guy is 44 and can’t remember winning the World Cup meeting the queen etc.
It was filmed a couple of years ago, and I’m only just 15 minutes in. They said that a pro rugby player can experience up to 80,000 sub concussions in their career.
CrumblingTerrace
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

Soggypitch wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:00 pm I think it's a question of knowing the possible risks of playing a particular sport/pastime, and doing your own risk assessment, then deciding whether to participate or not. Most rugby players I strongly suspect would continue to play.
The challenge is understanding how a young player can adequately assess the risk to their brain. If their concussion is diagnosed they can add it to their medical history. But what if it's missed? What about sub-concussions? How do they understand the genetic/environmental factors that may make them more likely to develop brain conditions? How do they factor in the future hits to the head they may/may not receive?

It is imperative that the governing bodies take the lead. Now. It cannot be left to players alone, for the same reason we don't let them decide if they can stay on the pitch during a game.
Tigerbeat
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7249
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: The big wide world

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by Tigerbeat »

Living with MND (Rob Burrows) on BBC 2 now and iplayer…..very hard to watch…..but a good insight
SUPPORT THE MATT HAMPSON TRUST
www.matthampson.co.uk
ads
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1512
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Born Leic, Live Leeds

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by ads »

Just watched that, such an awful disease.

Love that fact that he's still cracking jokes though. Great bloke.
tigerburnie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8317
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:46 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by tigerburnie »

Tough to watch indeed. Ni idea what the answer is but the question is obvious, how do we stop this from happening, league or union.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
wormus
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1567
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:23 pm
Location: "The Home of the Game!"

Re: Food for thought? risk of MND is 15 times higher

Post by wormus »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:17 pm Living with MND (Rob Burrows) on BBC 2 now and iplayer…..very hard to watch…..but a good insight
Agreed such a moving documentary and the support from Rob's wife, young children and his parents is so moving.
A great interview with Sir Kevin in there too. All the more reason to support the campaigns for Rob, Doddie and now our old Captain Ed too. :smt023 :smt027
Worth a watch ~ https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... g-with-mnd
Post Reply