Dokie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:33 pm
Guys, we were well beaten. Show some dignity and take it on the chin.
Yes we were well beaten by a superior team on the day. It riles me how they got there, that is all. This should not be forgotten. The fact is that they have benefitted long term from the cheating.
When are you going to let it go?
You remind me of my grandmother who, when we used to watch It’s a Knockout, hated it when Germany won!
I'm with Pellsey on this one. The financial cheating allowed them to build a very strong squad, not just a strong 1st XV, which, combined with decent coaches, led to success on the field. This led to them, like Tigers in their heyday, able to pay less for star players than a less successful club, like Newcastle, say. It also made them more attractive to academy level players, potentially perpetuating the success (unfairly IMHO) for quite a few years. I'm 66 and might be dead before the long term impact becomes negligible.
I know that there's very little that I can do about it, and it doesn't get in the way of my life, but it festers and will do for a few years yet. Probably until they find making the playoffs a challenge. The attitude and behaviour of a number of their players, step forward Ben Earl as the prime example, does not encourage me to let bygones be bygones. So I won't, yet.
Cagey Tiger wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:43 pm
I know that there's very little that I can do about it, and it doesn't get in the way of my life, but it festers and will do for a few years yet. Probably until they find making the playoffs a challenge. The attitude and behaviour of a number of their players, step forward Ben Earl as the prime example, does not encourage me to let bygones be bygones. So I won't, yet.
Me too, I wouldn't mind so much if players such a Earl showed some humility and sportsmanship!
They were not properly sanctioned, in my opinion, this was illustrated by the fact that after a year in the second tier, they were able to come straight back up and finish second. The industrial scale of their cheating continues to benefit their play and that is something I despise. Which is why all this forgive and forget nonsense is annoying. There is none coming from me and mine.
The commentary team on BT talking about all they "won" in the past etc., is galling. Don't they know that all those events have been written off and are null and void?
There are several clubs I am not keen on but that is because of historical rivalries, which at the end of the day are part of the sport which we accept. But Saracens are pariah's in our sport, no matter how well they played.
Smudge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:51 am
They were not properly sanctioned, in my opinion, this was illustrated by the fact that after a year in the second tier, they were able to come straight back up and finish second. The industrial scale of their cheating continues to benefit their play and that is something I despise. Which is why all this forgive and forget nonsense is annoying. There is none coming from me and mine.
The commentary team on BT talking about all they "won" in the past etc., is galling. Don't they know that all those events have been written off and are null and void?
There are several clubs I am not keen on but that is because of historical rivalries, which at the end of the day are part of the sport which we accept. But Saracens are pariah's in our sport, no matter how well they played.
There were a lot of similar comments from Quins fans, especially after Smith was not allowed to play but all Sarries were. Quins level of forgiveness mirrors most of ours on here.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Saracens misdemeanours should have been recognised much earlier. Having been allowed to build over several seasons they had built a great base from which they could easily withstand the punishment that was ultimately handed out to them. And what other punishment could have been meted out. If they had been punished the first season who knows what may have happened.
And the other question impossible to answer is exactly how much the financial irregularities helped them. There is no doubt they have built a strong club - recruitment, academy, coaching, mentality wise.
Personally I got over it a long time ago. I don't think intrinsically McCall, the other coaches and their players are rotten cheats. And I mean if we are talking level playing fields in Europe then we are nowhere near in terms of the French/Irish finances.
By using the term misdemeanours you seem to indicate that they were only minor offences, which was hardly the case.
Don't forget, they agreed to a fine and demotion rather than have their books fully investigated.
Smudge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:33 pm
By using the term misdemeanours you seem to indicate that they were only minor offences, which was hardly the case.
Don't forget, they agreed to a fine and demotion rather than have their books fully investigated.
What they found was egregious enough, never mind that the full extent of what they were up to was never fully investigated, so you can only assume it was far far worse given their reluctance to expose it.
Smudge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:33 pm
By using the term misdemeanours you seem to indicate that they were only minor offences, which was hardly the case.
Fair enough, it was probably the wrong word to use. But you missed main the point of my post. Had their major offences been picked up in the first year and appropriate action taken then we would be looking at a whole difference story. It only being surfaced after 3 years means they had built a greater depth and resilience and baked in trophies/revenue off their successes.
Smudge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:33 pmDon't forget, they agreed to a fine and demotion rather than have their books fully investigated.
Well, yeah, I don't get why that was even an option.
But one thing I struggle with is how much blame should be attached to the authorities.
Cagey Tiger wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:43 pm
I know that there's very little that I can do about it, and it doesn't get in the way of my life, but it festers and will do for a few years yet. Probably until they find making the playoffs a challenge. The attitude and behaviour of a number of their players, step forward Ben Earl as the prime example, does not encourage me to let bygones be bygones. So I won't, yet.
Me too, I wouldn't mind so much if players such a Earl showed some humility and sportsmanship!
Yes indeed, Ben Earl is truly unique in the world of professional rugby; no Tigers player would dream of celebrating a decision going their way.
A discreet smile and a consoling “hard luck, old boy” to his opposite number is as far as it goes.
ourla wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:30 pm
Saracens misdemeanours should have been recognised much earlier. Having been allowed to build over several seasons they had built a great base from which they could easily withstand the punishment that was ultimately handed out to them. And what other punishment could have been meted out. If they had been punished the first season who knows what may have happened.
And the other question impossible to answer is exactly how much the financial irregularities helped them. There is no doubt they have built a strong club - recruitment, academy, coaching, mentality wise.
Personally I got over it a long time ago. I don't think intrinsically McCall, the other coaches and their players are rotten cheats. And I mean if we are talking level playing fields in Europe then we are nowhere near in terms of the French/Irish finances.
This is all very true. I would have forgiven and forgotten a while ago too, if it weren't for the fact that they are still benefitting from it - as you said "There is no doubt they have built a strong club - recruitment, academy, coaching, mentality wise." It is obvious, as players and staff, that they work hard etc and this should naturally be applauded. I don't blame McCall and the players. It is the club, I still have an issue with. The fundaments on which the club is now created is not exactly creating a level playing field for other clubs to compete, and I don't mean their hard work and good set up, because, like I said, this is admirable.
Cagey Tiger wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:43 pm
I know that there's very little that I can do about it, and it doesn't get in the way of my life, but it festers and will do for a few years yet. Probably until they find making the playoffs a challenge. The attitude and behaviour of a number of their players, step forward Ben Earl as the prime example, does not encourage me to let bygones be bygones. So I won't, yet.
Me too, I wouldn't mind so much if players such a Earl showed some humility and sportsmanship!
Yes indeed, Ben Earl is truly unique in the world of professional rugby; no Tigers player would dream of celebrating a decision going their way.
A discreet smile and a consoling “hard luck, old boy” to his opposite number is as far as it goes.
I presume that you have never seen the frequency and over the top manner (by any standards) of his celebrations at the least "victory" - penalty, free kick, turnover etc. - during the game for Sarries.
